MAS B772 Fleet Decommissioned on 27 January 2016

[Lim Kar Yong 0]

When is MH going to announce the order? I have been waiting for so long.

 

Soon...just be patient. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year, maybe never...

[KK Lee 5]

Boeing Co. (BA) is struggling to find buyers for 11 of its earliest 787 Dreamliners valued at $1.1 billion after two airlines dropped orders for the holdover models from the jet’s troubled birth, people briefed on the plans said.

The partially completed planes, which are heavier than new 787s and can’t fly as far, have been parked for about four years near a Seattle-area plant. Black plastic shrouds the windows, and 17,000-pound (7,700-kilogram) counterweights dangle from wings in place of engines to keep the jets balanced.

Boeing began building Dreamliners before getting U.S. certification in 2011, amassing a record inventory that included dozens of older versions requiring extensive repairs to meet federal standards. Chicago-based Boeing is starting upgrades on the early 787s, the last ones to be fixed, as it steps up sales efforts, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private.

.....

The early Dreamliners are known in the industry as the “terrible teens,” a nod to their place in the assembly-line order and the factory woes. The teens weigh more than other 787s due to custom-fitted reinforcements and needed the most work among the more 60 early Dreamliners that required post-assembly modifications.

“We are actively marketing those airplanes and have several available opportunities,” Doug Alder, a Boeing spokesman inSeattle, said by e-mail while declining to elaborate.

Boeing has approached PT Garuda Indonesia (GIAA)and Malaysia Airline System Bhd. (MAS) as well as Latin American and Middle Eastern carriers about the early 787s, said one of the people.

Garuda is considering buying twin-aisle planes and is choosing between Airbus’s A350 and the Dreamliner, a person familiar with the discussions had said earlier this month.

.....

Buyers would probably pay less than half the current $211.8 million list price of the 787-8 version, Kelly said. The 787 teens have a market value of $115 million each for a single-unit or small lot sale, according to Avitas estimates. Airlines will probably demand 10 percent to 15 percent discounts, bringing the price closer to $100 million, Kelly said.

‘Good Value’

The upgraded Dreamliners will boast the same warranties as new planes, 10 percent fuel savings over Airbus’s A330-200 and creature comforts such as greater cabin humidity and dimmable electronic window shades, Kelly said. Their range will be about 1,000 nautical miles (1,852 kilometers) shorter than later 787s.

For carriers that don’t need to fly 7,850 nautical miles nonstop, as Boeing promises the 787 can do, the teens “still represent a good value,” Kelly said in a phone interview. “It’s just a matter of what price are you going to be prepared to pay for that versus a standard-build 787.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-25/boeing-said-to-seek-buyers-for-1-1-billion-of-early-787s.html

Ideal to replace 738 on MH regional routes.

Edited February 25, 2014 by KK Lee

[Isaac 0]

 

Boeing Co. (BA) is struggling to find buyers for 11 of its earliest 787 Dreamliners valued at $1.1 billion after two airlines dropped orders for the holdover models from the jet’s troubled birth, people briefed on the plans said.

The partially completed planes, which are heavier than new 787s and can’t fly as far, have been parked for about four years near a Seattle-area plant. Black plastic shrouds the windows, and 17,000-pound (7,700-kilogram) counterweights dangle from wings in place of engines to keep the jets balanced.

Boeing began building Dreamliners before getting U.S. certification in 2011, amassing a record inventory that included dozens of older versions requiring extensive repairs to meet federal standards. Chicago-based Boeing is starting upgrades on the early 787s, the last ones to be fixed, as it steps up sales efforts, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private.

.....

The early Dreamliners are known in the industry as the “terrible teens,” a nod to their place in the assembly-line order and the factory woes. The teens weigh more than other 787s due to custom-fitted reinforcements and needed the most work among the more 60 early Dreamliners that required post-assembly modifications.

“We are actively marketing those airplanes and have several available opportunities,” Doug Alder, a Boeing spokesman inSeattle, said by e-mail while declining to elaborate.

Boeing has approached PT Garuda Indonesia (GIAA)and Malaysia Airline System Bhd. (MAS) as well as Latin American and Middle Eastern carriers about the early 787s, said one of the people.

Garuda is considering buying twin-aisle planes and is choosing between Airbus’s A350 and the Dreamliner, a person familiar with the discussions had said earlier this month.

.....

Buyers would probably pay less than half the current $211.8 million list price of the 787-8 version, Kelly said. The 787 teens have a market value of $115 million each for a single-unit or small lot sale, according to Avitas estimates. Airlines will probably demand 10 percent to 15 percent discounts, bringing the price closer to $100 million, Kelly said.

‘Good Value’

The upgraded Dreamliners will boast the same warranties as new planes, 10 percent fuel savings over Airbus’s A330-200 and creature comforts such as greater cabin humidity and dimmable electronic window shades, Kelly said. Their range will be about 1,000 nautical miles (1,852 kilometers) shorter than later 787s.

For carriers that don’t need to fly 7,850 nautical miles nonstop, as Boeing promises the 787 can do, the teens “still represent a good value,” Kelly said in a phone interview. “It’s just a matter of what price are you going to be prepared to pay for that versus a standard-build 787.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-25/boeing-said-to-seek-buyers-for-1-1-billion-of-early-787s.html

Ideal to replace 738 on MH regional routes.

 

True! MAS can start phasing out the non-Sky Interior leased 738 soon.

[flee 5]

Can MH handle a new type right now?

 

Fuel savings over the A333 does not look much unless they are running these aircraft on their long sectors like KUL-AKL. Boeing should offer a full service package so that MH just pump fuel and fly. And, of course, a GECAS lease arrangement too. That will mean using GEnx engines.

[JuliusWong 0]

I don't think MAS can afford to take in another fleet type with current dire situation now. They can barely make money with current capacity. MAS needs to overhaul the current revenue and cost management systems before they go ahead in acquiring new toys, no matter how 'cheap' the orphan B787s are. Buying something cheap now might come back to bite in future........

[flee 5]

They can if they retire the B772s...

 

Maybe putting on a daily service to FRA using a B788 is better than their current service. They don't need a big fleet - only need B787's capability to service routes that the A333 can't.

 

But it is a risky proposition nonetheless...

[JuliusWong 0]

On a side note, didn't Boeing sold off those heavy B787 already? Line 10 till Line 19 are allocated: Lion Air is getting 5, Transaero 4 and RwandAir 2.

 

Perhaps Boeing are talking about the first six B787 test aircraft?

They can if they retire the B772s...

 

Maybe putting on a daily service to FRA using a B788 is better than their current service. They don't need a big fleet - only need B787's capability to service routes that the A333 can't.

 

But it is a risky proposition nonetheless...

Indeed very risky. AJ has stated their fleet plan clearly during last press conference. Seems like they are giving it a miss. Moreover, not many banks are willing to approve loan for MH since its latest financial report hit the news. Perhaps EXIM in America can help out........

[flee 5]

Boeing Co. (BA) is struggling to find buyers for 11 of its earliest 787 Dreamliners valued at $1.1 billion after two airlines dropped orders for the holdover models from the jet’s troubled birth, people briefed on the plans said.

 

Russia’s Transaero Airlines opted out of an order for four of the jets in December, three people said, while Indonesia’s PT Lion Mentari Airlines said in January it was switching to Boeing 737s instead of taking five Dreamliners. The sales push also includes two 787s for which RwandAir signed a letter of intent in 2012 and for which no firm agreement has been reached, one person said.

Edited February 25, 2014 by flee

[Mike P 0]

 

Boeing Co. (BA) is struggling to find buyers for 11 of its earliest 787 Dreamliners valued at $1.1 billion after two airlines dropped orders for the holdover models from the jet’s troubled birth, people briefed on the plans said.

 

Russia’s Transaero Airlines opted out of an order for four of the jets in December, three people said, while Indonesia’s PT Lion Mentari Airlines said in January it was switching to Boeing 737s instead of taking five Dreamliners. The sales push also includes two 787s for which RwandAir signed a letter of intent in 2012 and for which no firm agreement has been reached, one person said.

 

 

MH can consider to nego with Boeing to buy them over.

[Isaac 0]

 

MH can consider to nego with Boeing to buy them over.

That is what Boeing is trying to do now. MAS reportedly is one of the airlines that Boeing has approached to try to convince to take the early built 787.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Isaac

[JuliusWong 0]

 

Boeing Co. (BA) is struggling to find buyers for 11 of its earliest 787 Dreamliners valued at $1.1 billion after two airlines dropped orders for the holdover models from the jet’s troubled birth, people briefed on the plans said.

 

Russia’s Transaero Airlines opted out of an order for four of the jets in December, three people said, while Indonesia’s PT Lion Mentari Airlines said in January it was switching to Boeing 737s instead of taking five Dreamliners. The sales push also includes two 787s for which RwandAir signed a letter of intent in 2012 and for which no firm agreement has been reached, one person said.

 

MAAAF!! Ampum beribu-ribu ampun.......didnt click and read the external link.

 

If bargain hunters like UN and JT are not taking them up, I can see there are some trouble with those B787s. MH should stay away though. It has enough things in her plate now.

[J. Suri 0]

Isn't the A332 could perform non-stop fight to EU?

[JuliusWong 0]

Isn't the A332 could perform non-stop fight to EU?

MH no longer have A332 in their fleet since they retired their three few years ago. Moreover A332 is heading to oblivion, taken over by the improved A333.

[Johan Z 0]

Reading some of the comments, some of these Dreamliners are too heavy. Their range is severely reduced. I guess they will be fine for short routes, but certainly cannot fly at profitable load to EU destinations.

[JuliusWong 0]

Reading some of the comments, some of these Dreamliners are too heavy. Their range is severely reduced. I guess they will be fine for short routes, but certainly cannot fly at profitable load to EU destinations.

Yes, Johan. They are severely more heavier, and Boeing is working on mechanisms to reduce the shortfall. It will be redundant for MH to buy an aircraft in which A333 will perform much better than it although the 787 is a 'newer- gen' aircraft.

[flee 5]

Boeing claims a range of 14,500 kms for the B787-8

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/787family/787-8prod.page

 

According to various sources, early frames were as much as 11 tonnes overweight while the latest production batch may still be around 4 tonnes overweight.

 

What is the range penalty of these "heavies"?

[Johan Z 0]

Yes, Johan. They are severely more heavier, and Boeing is working on mechanisms to reduce the shortfall. It will be redundant for MH to buy an aircraft in which A333 will perform much better than it although the 787 is a 'newer- gen' aircraft.

 

I still think MH should take them as an interim measure and ask for a good discount.

[flee 5]

As I have said in the previous page, they should just lease them, if they are really desperate to have them...

[JuliusWong 0]

This is what I have gathered:

On May 4, 2009, a press report indicated a 10–15% range reduction, about 6,900 nmi (12,800 km) instead of the originally promised 7,700 to 8,200 nmi (14,800–15,700 km), for early aircraft that were about 8% overweight.

Substantial redesign work was expected to correct this, which would complicate increases in production rates; Boeing stated the early 787-8s would have a range of almost 8,000 nmi (15,000 km). As a result, some airlines reportedly delayed deliveries of 787s in order to take later planes that may be closer to the original estimates. Boeing expected to have the weight issues addressed by the 21st production model. Boeing now advertises the range of the 787-8 as 14,150-15,170km, a reduction of roughly 560km from the 14,800-15,700km first touted.

"According to Aspire Aviation‘s two sources at the US airframer, the first 787 prototype, dubbed ZA001 which carries the registration N787BA, is 9.8 tonnes (21,500 lbs) overweight, a significant figure when considering the aircraft’s specific maximum zero fuel weight (MZFW) of 161,025 kg (355,000 lbs).

Line number 7 to 19 (LN7-LN19), the same sources confirm, are considerably less overweight at 6.1 tonnes (13,500 lbs). Line number 20 (LN20), the first 787 to feature increased maximum take-off weight (MTOW) from 219,539 kg (484,000 lbs) to 227,930 kg (502,500 lbs) to recover some of the payload/range capabilities lost owing to the overweight issue, is around 4 tonnes (8,800 lbs) overweight.

Line number 34 (LN34), dubbed ZA380 and the first 787 earmarked for China Southern Airlines, along with LN50 for Ethiopian Airlines, are block points for further weight reductions.

Line number 90 (LN90) will be the first 787-8 meeting the aircraft’s original weight target with no overweight issue, the sources say."

Source: http://www.aspireaviation.com/2011/10/03/challenges-remain-as-boeing-787-becomes-reality/

Edited February 25, 2014 by JuliusWong

[alberttky 0]

 

I still think MH should take them as an interim measure and ask for a good discount.

Getting the aircraft is one thing. Training pilots is another. A brand new 787 sim is going for about USD15M (don't think you can find a 2nd hand 787 sim now). Alternatively send all their pilots to Singapore as there's a sim at the Boeing Centre. But then how much is that gonna cost in terms of transport, accommodation and allowance?

[flee 5]

Yes, the low hanging fruit is still the crony contracts, leakages and improving staff productivity. Having overweight B787s will not make too much difference to the bottom line.

[JuliusWong 0]

For comparison:

 

A330-200X range is 13,400 km (7,200 nmi).

A330-300X range is 11,300 km (6,100 nmi)

B787-8 range is 14,200–15,200 km (7,650–8,200 nmi)- *improved version

[KK Lee 5]

 

Boeing Co. (BA) is struggling to find buyers for 11 of its earliest 787 Dreamliners valued at $1.1 billion after two airlines dropped orders for the holdover models from the jet’s troubled birth, people briefed on the plans said.

Buyers would probably pay less than half the current $211.8 million list price of the 787-8 version, Kelly said. The 787 teens have a market value of $115 million each for a single-unit or small lot sale, according to Avitas estimates. Airlines will probably demand 10 percent to 15 percent discounts, bringing the price closer to $100 million, Kelly said.

‘Good Value’

The upgraded Dreamliners will boast the same warranties as new planes, 10 percent fuel savings over Airbus’s A330-200 and creature comforts such as greater cabin humidity and dimmable electronic window shades, Kelly said. Their range will be about 1,000 nautical miles (1,852 kilometers) shorter than later 787s.

For carriers that don’t need to fly 7,850 nautical miles nonstop, as Boeing promises the 787 can do, the teens “still represent a good value,” Kelly said in a phone interview. “It’s just a matter of what price are you going to be prepared to pay for that versus a standard-build 787.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-25/boeing-said-to-seek-buyers-for-1-1-billion-of-early-787s.html

 

 

Assumed improved and overweight 787-8 cost $160m and $100m respectively, saving is $60m a piece, depreciate over 10 years is $6m/yr. If extra fuel for 8% over weight is less than $6m/yr is commercial viable option.

 

For comparison:

 

A330-200X range is 13,400 km (7,200 nmi).

A330-300X range is 11,300 km (6,100 nmi)

B787-8 range is 14,200–15,200 km (7,650–8,200 nmi)- *improved version

 

Maximum yield is achieved when capacity meet demand. MH current fleet mix is difficult to achieve maximum yield and in need of a aircraft type between 738 and A333 to improve its yield.

Moreover, not many banks are willing to approve loan for MH since its latest financial report hit the news. Perhaps EXIM in America can help out........

Given MH is a GLC, implied guaranteed by GoM, could borrow from local banks like some of FY ATR

 

 

Getting the aircraft is one thing. Training pilots is another. A brand new 787 sim is going for about USD15M (don't think you can find a 2nd hand 787 sim now). Alternatively send all their pilots to Singapore as there's a sim at the Boeing Centre. But then how much is that gonna cost in terms of transport, accommodation and allowance?

If MH could buy 10 787-10 at $100m/pc, simulator cost won't be a substantial proportion. Before taking delivery of own simulator, MH could always out source the simulator training.

[flee 5]

If MH could buy 10 787-10 at $100m/pc, simulator cost won't be a substantial proportion. Before taking delivery of own simulator, MH could always out source the simulator training.

It is the 787-8 that Boeing is offering, not the yet to fly 787-10.

 

Looking at the fuel penalty for overweight planes, it is probably not suitable for MH unless it uses it the same way as ANA does - for short haul and domestic routes. So it may make sense on routes to KCH, BKI, BKK, PER, HKG and India. Fuel penalty might be too high on EU routes and the 242t A333 might still make better economic sense.

[KK Lee 5]

It is the 787-8 that Boeing is offering, not the yet to fly 787-10.

 

Looking at the fuel penalty for overweight planes, it is probably not suitable for MH unless it uses it the same way as ANA does - for short haul and domestic routes. So it may make sense on routes to KCH, BKI, BKK, PER, HKG and India. Fuel penalty might be too high on EU routes and the 242t A333 might still make better economic sense.

 

Ooops! Thanks for the correction.

 

Concurred that these overweight 787-8 is idea for regional.

 

According to IATA, current Jet fuel cost about $1000/ton. Assumed this overweight 787 burn 500kg/hr more fuel, operate 14 hours/day, fuel penalty is about $2.5 million/year. Unless fuel price is doubled, these overweight 787 is commercial viable option.