MAS Entry Into SkyTeam

[Keith T 2]

When MH joins Skyteam, this is going to change. We will have to share our award seats with guys from FlyingBlue who typically earns 3 times more miles than Enrich's FF due to their generous bonus miles etc

 

I'm pretty sure differentiated award buckets will be imposed if and when MH joins ST and there's a massive increase in award redemption of MH seats. In fact I'd be very surprised if they don't already exist given the relatively high demand for MH award seats from members of its FF partners.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Keith T

[Seth K 3]

I'm pretty sure differentiated award buckets will be imposed if and when MH joins ST and there's a massive increase in award redemption of MH seats. In fact I'd be very surprised if they don't already exist given the relatively high demand for MH award seats from members of its FF partners.

Thats exactly the point of Alliance, various offers in many ways from schedule to FF programs. People will choose airline with Alliance where they can collect points from every single alliance flights. And now, when you book a flight, you can choose an Alliance as an option . Plus with Alliance, the travelling is easier Like MH, the FF programs are very limited to Malaysia only, and the offers are too small for people around the world to use it. MH need to join world organization

 

[Arthur Lee 0]

I'm pretty sure differentiated award buckets will be imposed if and when MH joins ST and there's a massive increase in award redemption of MH seats. In fact I'd be very surprised if they don't already exist given the relatively high demand for MH award seats from members of its FF partners.

 

I am sure they do, but unlikely to be at a rate of 3 times Enrich's FF redemption rate.

 

The other thing is that while Enrich's very frequent flyers who only fly in Y dont get access to the Golden Lounge, we may be seeing French backpackers who only fly in Y in our Golden Lounge due to the FlyingBlue's elite entitlement.

 

[Arthur Lee 0]

Like MH, the FF programs are very limited to Malaysia only, and the offers are too small for people around the world to use it. MH need to join world organization

 

What will happen is "Paid flights on AF/KLM , Redeem on MH" as is already happening with MH's current partners.

 

If StarAlliance or OneWorld is willing to bring you in, Yes please join an alliance as soon as possible.

Skyteam ? I am not so sure.

 

For as long as MH flies to LHR,SYD and LAX; I am quite happy. I usually stay overnight at an airport hotel before taking BA/QF/UA to wherever I need to go. No need for direct connections, by staying overnight it helps me recover from my jetlag.

 

[Keith T 2]

The other thing is that while Enrich's very frequent flyers who only fly in Y dont get access to the Golden Lounge, we may be seeing French backpackers who only fly in Y in our Golden Lounge due to the FlyingBlue's elite entitlement.

 

I'm pretty sure the Enrich programme will be revamped if members of the the current management have even half a brain each. Plus, don't you need to have top tier status with ST before you're allowed to enter other ST lounges? ST Elite Plus I think it is - the crucial difference with *G is that it only comprises of the upper-most tier of the individual FFPs, whereas *G includes both top (eg, UA 1K/UGS, SQ LPP/TPP/QPP, AC SE etc) and middle tiers (eg, UA 1P, SQ KF Gold, AC E etc). Or the ow 3 tier system where the 2 upper tiers, sapphire and emerald, allow access to business and first lounges respectively. So I don't think 'French backpackers who only fly in Y' will have a presence in the Golden Lounge anytime soon; if they manage to - I can't imagine the pain of making it to top tier status by achieving the general prerequisite of 100k EQMs (or a ridiculous number of sector count?) flying only in WHY. This is in contrast to *G status which is achievable with just 35 000 EQMs (AC E). Having said that I do know a few QF Plats who go there by flying solely in discount WHY - to them I salute.

 

edited to add - oops i take back my words partially. Just noticed a bizarre residency clause in FB status levels. Apparently if you're FB Gold and are a US resident, you are only eligible for ST Elite status, like FB Silvers. Non-US residents on the other hand get ST Elite Plus status with merely FB Gold. This means that FB Golds based outside the US will be able to have ST-wide lounge access just like FB Plats, but not FB Golds based in the US. Why the discrepancy? Paging Pieter C!

Edited May 25, 2006 by Keith T

[Keith T 2]

What will happen is "Paid flights on AF/KLM , Redeem on MH" as is already happening with MH's current partners.

 

That happens a lot with SQ in *A. But getting even one SQ F seat with miles from another *A FFP is like winning tattslotto.

[Seth K 3]

What will happen is "Paid flights on AF/KLM , Redeem on MH" as is already happening with MH's current partners.

But here KLM and MH has codeshare between AMS-KUL, so possibly can happen when/or there is no room for KL AMS-KUL But if you pay to BA and expect to redeem on MH, that won't likely to happen. See, when you redeem points, the flight you on must be operated by the airline/partners(if unavailable/option) itself unless connection flights to other cities not serve ex. LHR-KUL>>KCH

[Arthur Lee 0]

So I don't think 'French backpackers who only fly in Y' will have a presence in the Golden Lounge anytime soon; if they manage to - I can't imagine the pain of making it to top tier status by achieving the general prerequisite of 100k EQMs flying only in WHY.

 

1) Enrich : An Enrich member who flies 1,000,000 miles in Y will not qualify for Gold, and hence no lounge access.

 

2) FlyingBlue : Gold can be achieved with as little as 40,000 miles in Y, and hence qualify for lounge access.

 

It doesnt cost all that much to fly 40,000 miles in Y. I am very sure many low-end European tourists qualify for that; one return trip to Aust/NZ ,one to the US and some continental travels will make you Gold and gives you access to the Golden Lounge. Our Malaysian friend who flies 1,000,000 miles in Y can only peek into the lounge

 

No doubt adjustments will be made eventually. But Enrich members who have saved all their miles for the last 3 years will feel the brunt the most since its definitely a devaluation upon joining Skyteam. MH is also unlikely to upgrade their existing blue members to Gold overnight. So while FlyingBlue members are able to enjoy MH's facilities/ award flights upon integration, it will take years for Enrich members to play catching-up. In anycase, no sane person will use their Enrich miles to redeem seats on AF, except perhaps a few on this board.

 

 

That happens a lot with SQ in *A. But getting even one SQ F seat with miles from another *A FFP is like winning tattslotto.

 

The difference between SQ and MH is that SQ looks after their FF fairly well , MH does not.

As Enrich Gold and holding a paid C ticket, I was not allowed access to the F lounge

 

Also, SQ is not the only premium carrier in StarAlliance though its probably the best. So the fly cheap, redeem premium concept will not be as frequent as in Skyteam. When MH joins Skyteam, the premium carriers in Skyteam will be MH and ............

Edited May 25, 2006 by Arthur Lee

[Keith T 2]

When MH joins Skyteam, the premium carriers in Skyteam will be MH and ............

 

... the beginning of the end? :S

[Keith T 2]

1) Enrich : An Enrich member who flies 1,000,000 miles in Y will not qualify for Gold, and hence no lounge access.

 

2) FlyingBlue : Gold can be achieved with as little as 40,000 miles in Y, and hence qualify for lounge access.

 

1) I should think they'd have to adjust/standardise the Enrich programme before being allowed to join ST, like the introduction of an Enrich Gold-lite tier or something, which allows lounge access and can be earned in Y.

 

2) Gosh yes that's pretty easy, only 5k more than AC E. Although I read that 40k only applies if you live outside France and Monaco - otherwise it's 60k. And then there's that other weird residency requirement I pointed out above. But then again I've just looked closely at the earning rates and yes you're right they're pretty generous. In fact, making Plat at 70k EQMs doesn't seem that hard, considering that most fare buckets count for 100% EQMs! 90k for residents of France and Monaco might be a bit of a stretch if you fly only in Y but there's always the option of borrowing addresses...

 

Hmm... I also note the ease of earning ST Elite Plus status on SU's programme... 50k EQMs with an exceedingly generous earn rate!

Edited May 25, 2006 by Keith T

[Arthur Lee 0]

Gosh yes that's pretty easy, only 5k more than AC E

 

Now you got my point !

 

I did a quick study and based on the same distance travelled over a three year period, our European Y class backpacker will have 3-times more miles than our Malaysian Y class flyer and 2-times more miles than our Malaysian Biz class flyer. So while our Malaysian Y class flyer is only able to redeem an Econ seat on MH, our smelly European backpacker in his tanktop will be sipping champagne in MH's F cabin

 

And god knows what is going to happen to our serene Golden Lounge. It will be packed with low-end European tourists (think Majorca), and you will probably find backpackers sleeping on the floor between the occupied couches. And our fantastic business centre will probably turn into a Khao San Road internet cafe.

 

While MH's management will probably revamp the Enrich's programme, its unlikely that we would be given the same mile earning opportunity as FlyingBlue overnight. Even if they were to introduce a Gold-lite status to allow Y-flyers to earn status and gain lounge access, it will not be 1-2 years before anyone qualifies for this new status. So for the first 3-4 years after joining Skyteam, MH will effectively be "colonised" by FlyingBlue members until they have used up all their "easy" miles accumulated 3 years prior.

 

Historically MH has always been taking their home-market and Enrich members for granted. They have offered Biz class seats to SYD for S'poreans who pay the same fare as Malaysians Econ passengers, just to lure passengers from SQ. And they have been giving away premium award seats for cheap to European and US based FF. With MH virtually begging to join Skyteam, they are not in the bargaining position to secure a decent deal for Enrich members, even if they are concerned for us.

 

MH has never been a popular choice with corporate travellers. This market has been captured by SQ and MH has recently admitted that they are concentrating on the leisure market. So what good would an alliance or an "expanded" network do when you have no business traveller to cater to ?

 

My thoughts on this forum :

 

It amazes me that everyone here are so excited with MH joining Skyteam as if its the best thing thats ever going to happen. I cant believe my eyes when someone wrote

If MH were accepted as the newest member of Skyteam,it will be the major achievement in MH history!Love to see the Skyteam logo on all MH fleet (post 64)

What achievement are you talking about ? Are we such low achievers as to celebrate the right to paint a logo on an aircraft ? You must as well celebrate a Proton landing on the North Pole ! The only intelligent post was when someone actually asked what the perks are by joining Skyteam (post 77), and no one could give an answer. Malaysia boleh !

Edited May 26, 2006 by Arthur Lee

[Tamizi Hj Tamby 1]

 

My thoughts on this forum :

 

It amazes me that everyone here are so excited with MH joining Skyteam as if its the best thing thats ever going to happen. I cant believe my eyes when someone wrote

If MH were accepted as the newest member of Skyteam,it will be the major achievement in MH history!Love to see the Skyteam logo on all MH fleet

What achievement are you talking about ? Are we such low achievers as to celebrate the right to paint a logo on an aircraft ? You must as well celebrate a Proton landing on the North Pole ! The only intelligent post was when someone actually asked what the perks are by joining Skyteam (post 77), and no one could give an answer. Malaysia boleh !

 

What do you mean with this statement?Are you saying that MH is not qualified enough to join Skyteam,or MH is a total jerk? I don't think so,as the statement above was said by me!

[Arthur Lee 0]

What do you mean with this statement?Are you saying that MH is not qualified enough to join Skyteam,or MH is a total jerk? I don't think so,as the statement above was said by me!

 

On the contrary !

 

If you are able to at least half understand the last 10 posts, what I was saying was MH is overqualified to join Skyteam.

 

Is this really an aviation forum ?

 

 

[Keith T 2]

Is this really an aviation forum ?

 

More so in an a.nutter kind of way if you've gone through most of the other threads.

 

But Arthur, if MH doesn't join ST - I doubt it's going to work out with the other 2 groupings. *A is already saturated in Asia, while I'm not sure QF/BA will tolerate the competition and allow MH into ow. Joining ow would also create a BA-AA transatlantic, intra-alliance style rivalry on the kangaroo route between QF/BA, CX and MH. Maybe MH should set up shop on its own with the currently unaligned (major) carriers? Surely there are still a few of those around like EK and VS (though it's highly unlikely for VS to join anything other than *A due to the SQ connection).

 

Whilst joining ST would 'cheapen' access to MH's premium facilities and most probably adversely affect MH's branding, I think the trade off would be economic pragmatism in terms of feeder traffic. I'm sure many many current ST FFP members would love to earn their miles by flying MH and in the process this will deliver lots of extra revenue to the carrier. Yours truly here has made statuses on UA and LH without actually stepping on to their a/c; kinda predictable who I earn my miles on within *A. And I'm sure this trend is consistent across *A (though admittedly there are other decent *A carriers like NZ to balance things out).

 

The question is - whether disenfranchising Enrich customers is a justifiable trade off for the sake of getting more revenue? That remains to be seen.

 

Or MH could always do what SQ does with SKL SIN - build and designate an inferior lounge in KUL as the 'ST Elite Plus' lounge, whilst keeping the Golden Lounge KUL exclusive to MH elite and premium class pax. That's assuming the ST lounge access program works on a system of designation like *A's.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Keith T

[Keith T 2]

Now you got my point !

 

Admittedly the only prior knowledge i have of the ST schemes are from the ST wiki. I've never felt the urge to fly on any ST carrier, let alone analyse the individual ST schemes in depth. And so when I read on the wiki that only the upper most tiers gain lounge access I automatically assumed a high threshold qualification level ala UA 1K or BA Gold.

 

And god knows what is going to happen to our serene Golden Lounge. It will be packed with low-end European tourists (think Majorca), and you will probably find backpackers sleeping on the floor between the occupied couches. And our fantastic business centre will probably turn into a Khao San Road internet cafe.

 

Hey the great unwashed ain't that bad. Once in a while I like to rough it out in WHY on a long haul and stay in hostels to meet other people. Like my trip to Europe last year; and thankfully AA Plat status came to my rescue and I got to enjoy the comforts of the BA Terraces Lounge while on a horrible 7 hour transit in LHR. It's sometimes liberating you know, although avoid BA in WHY if you can - I developed the 'BA back' after doing LHR-HKG on them and was still feeling the effects of the uncomfy BA seat after several visits to the physiotherapist. WTP however was rather palatable.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Keith T

[kandiah k 0]

 

My thoughts on this forum :

 

It amazes me that everyone here are so excited with MH joining Skyteam as if its the best thing thats ever going to happen. I cant believe my eyes when someone wrote

If MH were accepted as the newest member of Skyteam,it will be the major achievement in MH history!Love to see the Skyteam logo on all MH fleet (post 64)

What achievement are you talking about ? Are we such low achievers as to celebrate the right to paint a logo on an aircraft ? You must as well celebrate a Proton landing on the North Pole ! The only intelligent post was when someone actually asked what the perks are by joining Skyteam (post 77), and no one could give an answer. Malaysia boleh !

 

 

Keith,

 

 

I think what is exciting to us if MH ever joins any alliances or ST for that matter is that it may/will bring in more traffic to KUL thus making KUL some sort of hub within the region for an alliance. This could also mean KUL won't be referred to as a white elephant like many claim it to be. As you and the others mentioned, Star and One World is just not possible. Since ST does not have a strong ground in this area, MH may as well join it. But I see your point and others' as well on how ST seems to be a third class rated airline groupings but I think some credit should be given to some airlines in the group because of their much improved service. It is the same with other alliance which have similar black sheeps that make the alliance look bad. All said, I think we should support MH's entry into some sort of alliance, because I think MH needs it. Otherwise, creating an entirely new Alliance with VS, EK, GA, and whatever else that is left to make a good airline alliance that has good connections and hubs, impeccable services as well as a high rate airline membership.

 

 

[KK Lee 5]

 

MH need to join an alliance is long over due. However, it is not a habit for MH to comply to alliance requirement, standards or practice unless they are made the chairman of the alliance. I won’t be surprise MH may not join ST at the end, quit the alliance after a few years or most likely taking the lead to set up a halal alliance.

 

 

 

[Seth K 3]

MH need to join an alliance is long over due. However, it is not a habit for MH to comply to alliance requirement, standards or practice unless they are made the chairman of the alliance. I won’t be surprise MH may not join ST at the end, quit the alliance after a few years or most likely taking the lead to set up a halal alliance.

Yup, look at Emirates, they not in any alliance, just like mention before, it's all come down to management, alliance make the airline stronger, not coming out from bad management. <_>

 

[Keith T 2]

Unfortunately my hypothesis about MH having to standardize its FFP to join ST has been dashed after reading this thread comparing the different ST FFPs:

 

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558287

 

Notice the huge discrepancy between KE's FFP and the rest. FB members might be pleased to know that ST Elite Plus status (FB Gold) is gained with only 40 000 EQMs. ST Elite Plus gains you access to lounges alliance-wide. If MH indeed joins ST and does not intend to change Enrich, you know what FFP to switch to if you wish to continue flying MH and enter the KUL Golden Lounge but flying only in economy. The required EQMs are increased to 60 000 if based in France and Monaco (and perhaps NL?), 70 000 if based in the US. But people living in these areas can check out the FFPs of OK, SU and AZ (75 000 for members in Italy) which grants Elite Plus status at just 50 000 EQMs. Or use another address if you also have an address not based in the listed countries or have friends based elsewhere. Most of these FFPs give full miles for travel in discount economy, and 150% for full fare economy.

Edited May 27, 2006 by Keith T

[Arthur Lee 0]

Unfortunately my hypothesis about MH having to standardize its FFP to join ST has been dashed after reading this thread comparing the different ST FFPs:

 

I hope you now realise why as a loyal MH customer, I am so frustrated with them joining Skyteam. The opinions expressed on this board gives a fair representation of the general Malaysian outlook; and with comments like existing Skyteam members are not "3rd rate airlines", and its an "achievement" if MH manage to join Skyteam etc what are the odds that MH which is proudly managed by Malaysians will be able to negotiate for a better deal. And not forgetting the average Malaysian will cringe at the sight of a gwei-lo ...........

[Keith T 2]

And not forgetting the average Malaysian will cringe at the sight of a gwei-lo ...........

 

Mate, now I think you're misrepresenting things a fair bit here... I've brought friends from Australia to visit Malaysia heaps of times and they've always commented on how friendly and helpful the locals are. And that includes non-service industry personnels and individuals encountered outside the tourist traps. I apologise if I'm completely mistaken as I've only lived in Malaysia as a little kid but your assertion seems to me a bit of a generalisation.

Edited May 27, 2006 by Keith T

[Arthur Lee 0]

I think the trade off would be economic pragmatism in terms of feeder traffic. I'm sure many many current ST FFP members would love to earn their miles by flying MH and in the process this will deliver lots of extra revenue to the carrier.

 

Good point.

 

However, this is already happening without the alliance. I believe MH has been code-sharing with KLM for many years. As to Skyteam members being "lured" to fly MH because of the ability to accrue miles in their Skyteam account, it may only come true for the odd business class passenger but unlikely for the tourist market since the the deciding factor is usually price of the airticket.

 

The notion that MH must join any alliance to survive is a myth. As has been pointed out by another poster, EK has been doing very well without joining an alliance. Any airline can do well if they have a good product and a good reputation (and ofcourse a good management) . The Datai in Langkawi has been doing very well eventhough you dont get to earn any hotel loyalty point by staying there.

 

MH has a very extensive network throughout SE Asia and there are not many airlines that could fly from say CDG to popular tourist destinations like REP,HKT,DPS,LGK etc on a single ticket, with minimal connections and at a reasonable price. The "once-a-year" tourist is already flying MH due to lack of choice, with or without Skyteam.

 

 

[Keith T 2]

MH has a very extensive network throughout SE Asia and there are not many airlines that could fly from say CDG to popular tourist destinations like REP,HKT,DPS,LGK etc on a single ticket, with minimal connections and at a reasonable price.

 

Hopefully that doesn't change too much with fleet rationalisation then.

 

Sadly, no MH flights for me for the moment, as I value my *G-earning EQMs too much. Plus, *dons flame-proof suit* SQ/TG takes care of my needs adequately for the most part.

Edited May 27, 2006 by Keith T

[Arthur Lee 0]

Mate, now I think you're misrepresenting things a fair bit here...

 

No, I am not.

 

Its very sad but true, and its across all segments of society, from the maintenance worker to the corporate leader. I live in a residential complex in KL with a fair number of expatriates, and never have I seen such a high level of discrimination; not in the UK, not in Europe, not in the US and not in Aust. I am all for being friendly and helpful to visitors, but discriminating against your own kind makes me sick.

 

I believe you have been away far too long .......

Edited May 27, 2006 by Arthur Lee

[Keith T 2]

I believe you have been away far too long .......

 

I do try to visit a fair bit as my parents now live in SIN (soon HKG). KUL is usually just a small add-on to my return ticket to SIN, cost-wise, and is a fantastic party town - not to mention cheap 5 star luxury and delicious food.I might not have encountered discrimination since I'm of Asian-descent (apart from the usual jibes at customs for not being able to speak Malaysian despite holding the passport), but I've not heard complaints from friends who visit.

 

If what you're saying is indeed true, then it's quite shocking. I suppose racism is inherent in every society but you make it seem as though it's the norm in Malaysia. Anyone else care to comment?

Edited May 27, 2006 by Keith T