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MAB Proposed 25 New Widebody Aircraft Purchase in 2017

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Would think the 787-9 would be the better candidate. If his aiming for 777-300er it will be heavy and probably more redundant than the a380.

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Would think the 787-9 would be the better candidate. If his aiming for 777-300er it will be heavy and probably more redundant than the a380.

787-9 is the same size as A330-300/A330-900.

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787-9 is the same size as A330-300/A330-900.

mas needs the extra range but not the extra capacity for long haul. Should be near 280ish seats. Edited by jahur

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mas needs the extra range but not the extra capacity for long haul. Should be near 280ish seats.

MH had difficulty to fill 772 previously. At current service level, network connection and ticket price, mab is playing second fiddle to me3. Doubt mab could break even on 280 pax aircraft on long haul.

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Yes, even PB said that returning to Europe right now is not a priority. Most of the wide body capacity that is needed will be for Asia Pacific. By the time MAB needs an aircraft to return to Europe, the 251t A330-900 should be available and have the necessary range. And if they do need the capacity of the B77W, the A350-1000 will be available.

Edited by flee

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MAB should just go ahead fast to order the A330NEO for expansion and also for replacing its A333s in a few years time. However finit interesting that Bellews said this " He added that the B787 had greater distance potential, while the A330-neos were in production, but there would not be any more orders of the A350 aircraft."

As MAB have leased 6 A350s - it would be better for MAB to go with airbus for all its wide bodies instead of having a few B787 for expansion as that would mean another different aircraft type. And MAB furture widebodies will not be that many with about 35 planes - and it woud be easier to have a all airbus fleet.

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MAB should just go ahead fast to order the A330NEO for expansion and also for replacing its A333s in a few years time. However finit interesting that Bellews said this " He added that the B787 had greater distance potential, while the A330-neos were in production, but there would not be any more orders of the A350 aircraft."

As MAB have leased 6 A350s - it would be better for MAB to go with airbus for all its wide bodies instead of having a few B787 for expansion as that would mean another different aircraft type. And MAB furture widebodies will not be that many with about 35 planes - and it woud be easier to have a all airbus fleet.

 

Yes, I found his comments on no more A350s interesting - it might indicate that MAB has placed priority on Asian destinations and the A350 has far greater range than is required. This does point to the A330neo being the most suitable wide body to buy for their Asian route network.

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Don't quite get why PB isn't keen on more A350s. The A350-1000 for example, could be a very useful aircraft for future expansion.

 

And if it's between the A330neo and the 787, MAS is better off going for the 787. The A330neo might be cheaper but say what you want, it's still a heavily retrofitted yesteryear aircraft. Better for the long term.

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Don't quite get why PB isn't keen on more A350s. The A350-1000 for example, could be a very useful aircraft for future expansion.

 

And if it's between the A330neo and the 787, MAS is better off going for the 787. The A330neo might be cheaper but say what you want, it's still a heavily retrofitted yesteryear aircraft. Better for the long term.

Most probably due to fact that MH does not really need high capacity + long range aircraft as they do not have the amount of passengers and many long haul routes to justify such purchase or lease. The longest now are Auckland and London. Even if they re-launch AMS, six A350 are good enough albeit very tight rotation. Note that A350-1000 is same class as B77W/B777-X therefore you need to ensure you have constant high amount of bums (with right revenue) order to operate with profit.

 

MH is being very cautious with their expansion and PB has mentioned many times over their growth are mainly in Asia Pacific, A330neo/ A330ceo will do the job just fine for 6-10 hours sectors although they are both previous generation widebody. Acquisition cost is low, their maintenance crew are familiar with them, you need minimal training for both cabin and cockpit crew. Plus you can get it early via lessor......Quite easily tilted the argument against buying/ leasing 787 which is an all-new aircraft to their Group.

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Don't quite get why PB isn't keen on more A350s. The A350-1000 for example, could be a very useful aircraft for future expansion.

 

And if it's between the A330neo and the 787, MAS is better off going for the 787. The A330neo might be cheaper but say what you want, it's still a heavily retrofitted yesteryear aircraft. Better for the long term.

A350s are somewhat big for their need. 787 may be newer, but A330neo offers better cost savings in terms of crew training & parts etc that can easily overcome the disadvantages of being an older design. Edited by Mohd Suhaimi Fariz

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Don't quite get why PB isn't keen on more A350s. The A350-1000 for example, could be a very useful aircraft for future expansion.

 

And if it's between the A330neo and the 787, MAS is better off going for the 787. The A330neo might be cheaper but say what you want, it's still a heavily retrofitted yesteryear aircraft. Better for the long term.

It is obvious that MAB is not going into long haul anytime soon - it already has an agreement with EK for those faraway destinations. MAB is not financially strong enough to go on more capital intensive ventures.

 

The A330neo is well suited to MAB because it is already an A330 operator and the investment needed is a lot lower. Besides, MAB is not really able to get economies of scale with a small fleet now (15 aircraft). When the fleet is larger (25-35 aircraft), it will have greater efficiency. The A330neo will be as good a passenger experience as the A350/B787 if the cabin is properly configured.

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By ordering a330 neo, it seems mab is reinventing itself back to the old mas.

 

Yield optimization is not in consideration.

 

Current oil price may be low but doesn't mean it will stay at this level permanently.

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By ordering a330 neo, it seems mab is reinventing itself back to the old mas.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Yield optimization is not in consideration.

 

Current oil price may be low but doesn't mean it will stay at this level permanently.

By ordering the A330neo, yield should be improved because the lower cost of leasing as compared to the highly in demand A350/B787 and will help to lower their break even point.

 

Furthermore, as shown in their recent change in the A350 seating configuration, they are increasing the number of business class seats to enhance revenue.

 

No one can predict oil price levels - but with the new fleet of B737Max/A330neo/A350 in place in the next few years, fuel expenses should not be such a big problem as compared to when they had to operate gas guzzlers when oil was at USD 150-200.

Edited by flee

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How did you come to this conclusion?

By ordering the A330neo, yield should be improved because the lower cost of leasing as compared to the highly in demand A350/B787 and will help to lower their break even point.

 

Furthermore, as shown in their recent change in the A350 seating configuration, they are increasing the number of business class seats to enhance revenue.

 

No one can predict oil price levels - but with the new fleet of B737Max/A330neo/A350 in place in the next few years, fuel expenses should not be such a big problem as compared to when they had to operate gas guzzlers when oil was at USD 150-200.

 

Yield could only optimized when supply meet demand perfectly. Travelling demand vary from season to season or even time of day. Hence, FSC like LH, BA and KL deploy different aircraft at different times to match demand.

 

Almost all aircraft engineers and pilots are certified on multiple aircraft type; most engine and components suppliers have stocks in SIN and spare parts kept at KUL/SZB could be minimum; hanger is for multiple aircraft type, similarly for rigs; many components change are pre-planned. Hence, the economy of scale needed for maintenance is small.

 

The capacity gap between 738 and A333 is too large for any airline to optimize yield except during peak travelling season. Yield on A333 regional is likely to be poor most of the time; to improve RASK, MAB will either replace A333 with 738 or reduce A333 frequency.

 

In the life cycle of aircraft e.g. 10 to 20 years, oil price could range from low $30 to high $150. If aircraft is optimized for low oil price, mean the airline will be losing when oil price is high.

Edited by KK Lee

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You are talking as if MAB is still an old school airline that it used to be - these days, they have downsized in every way. They simply don't have the luxury to do all those things that you have mentioned. They are not playing in that league any more and there is no need to pretend that they are a 5 star, 6 continent airline!

 

PB has already identified their needs for the next 5-10 years and lets see what MAB will become with lean and mean approach to running the business.... B)

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Oil price like most commodities is cyclical, making decisions based on cheap price is asking for trouble when oil price rise. Anywhere, by that time, pb doesn't expect to be around to take the heat. Edited by KK Lee

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Oil price like most commodities is cyclical, making decisions based on cheap price is asking for trouble when oil price rise. Anywhere, by that time, pb doesn't expect to be around to take the heat.

Availability, price and specification remains some of the factors. 787 slots are difficult to come by, much pricier tag and Malaysia Airlines doesn't need the extra range 787 has. A330neo seems to be natural replacement for A330ceo. Crew can be easily trained too. Engineers are familiar with them. Guess all these factors make A330neo a 'buy'. I still prefer 787 though....

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PB is really milking

1. Purchase of 6 "second hand" airbus A330......"we'll be announcing in the near future"

2. In the market for 25 new widebodies....."we'll be announcing in the near future"

Any how...I am all for the B787 but alas it looks like the least likely considering MAB's current fleet, unless Boeing can come up with a super duper offer.

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Availability, price and specification remains some of the factors. 787 slots are difficult to come by, much pricier tag and Malaysia Airlines doesn't need the extra range 787 has. A330neo seems to be natural replacement for A330ceo. Crew can be easily trained too. Engineers are familiar with them. Guess all these factors make A330neo a 'buy'. I still prefer 787 though....

Instead of a333ceo, if MH ordered a350 or 787 a few years ago, they would received new type by now.

 

If training is a obstacles, mh should keep a330 and 738 for next 50 years.

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The A330neo hasn't really caught on with the world's major airlines. For good reason.

 

This aircraft is, at its core, a heavily modified machine from the 1990s. At best, it's role is nothing more than a bargaining argument when airlines go shopping for the B787.

 

Its only advantage lies in its relatively cheap upfront costs, which is alright in the short term.

 

For the last 15-20 years, MAS has been one step behind in the product cycles of both Airbus and Boeing. They look set to continue this trend unfortunately.

 

The B787 may be more expensive. Some may even say it's unnecessary looking at MAS' current and foreseeable future network. But countless airlines, both full service and budget operators, use this aircraft as their regional workhorses. The aircraft clearly does wonders for medium-haul missions and is a good fit for thinner long haul flights.

 

It gives an airline OPTIONS.

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MH's current fleet of A333's isn't actually that old and being a A330-323X's they are very capable aircraft.

 

I do at times, wonder why they opted to remain with P&W engines which aren't the least common power plant on the A330's. That said, there are a number of operators that have a mix of PW, RR and GE engines in their fleets.

 

Small steps for MH and I believe their best move would be to acquire some similar A333's on the leasing market and configure them identically to -MTA etc, although maybe without the Y+.

 

If the A350's also service AKL that'll free up a couple of A333's for regional expansion.

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The A330neo hasn't really caught on with the world's major airlines. For good reason.

 

This aircraft is, at its core, a heavily modified machine from the 1990s. At best, it's role is nothing more than a bargaining argument when airlines go shopping for the B787.

 

Its only advantage lies in its relatively cheap upfront costs, which is alright in the short term.

 

For the last 15-20 years, MAS has been one step behind in the product cycles of both Airbus and Boeing. They look set to continue this trend unfortunately.

 

The B787 may be more expensive. Some may even say it's unnecessary looking at MAS' current and foreseeable future network. But countless airlines, both full service and budget operators, use this aircraft as their regional workhorses. The aircraft clearly does wonders for medium-haul missions and is a good fit for thinner long haul flights.

 

It gives an airline OPTIONS.

Right now, there is a cyclical downturn in widebody orders. The A330neo as well as the other wide bodied aircraft are not receiving many orders. Many commentators have been predicting the death of the A330 since the B787 was launched - but they were proven wrong as the A330 has continued to sell steadily since then.

 

I am sure the A330neo will do OK - they will not get large, spectacular orders but small orders will be placed as airlines need to expand or to replace worn out aircraft.

 

MH is a good example - there are actually two orders here, one for expansion (the leased used A330s they are finalising deals on) and those for replacement of old aircraft (A330neo). For once in their history, they are thinking ahead and buying before the need becomes urgent. I think one of the reasons why they want to replace their newish A330s sooner is because they are PW engined - not the best for performance, reliability and economy. So there will be a good incentive to switch to an improved A339 neo. Lets hope that whatever aircraft they choose, they make improvements to the cabin - this is what really puts bums on seats!

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