The contenders for Nuri's replacement

[Fitri Shukri 0]

Upgrade the Nuri to "full" CSAR capability for the Air Force and buy another type for Army tactical transport role. I have good experience maintaining the S61 and i can assure there is no airworthiness issue. My observation is sometimes the green light for the upgrade takes to long time by time it is approved the technology is out dated like in the case of last Nuri auto hover upgrade. The USAF is tipped to choose the upgraded Chinook (60's design like the S61) for their CSAR-X (next generation CSAR) beating NH90, S92 and EH101.

 

Technical and tactical is not the only reason for selection. Another one is political. Any company which has the better political weight will win the contract. Now they are two camps- Agusta camps and Eurocopter camps. Both has their own political trump card.

 

A Fira,

 

I do not want to challenge your technical know how about the S-61, but I believe the public just couldn't accept any more reasons to extend the Nuri's life. I believe its high time the Nuri is sent to the musuems and aerospace faculties and bring in new rotary transport, for both the air force and army. However, i do agree the RMAF should concentrate on CSAR and Special Missions while the army on general transport.

[A Fira 0]

A Fira,

 

I do not want to challenge your technical know how about the S-61, but I believe the public just couldn't accept any more reasons to extend the Nuri's life. I believe its high time the Nuri is sent to the musuems and aerospace faculties and bring in new rotary transport, for both the air force and army. However, i do agree the RMAF should concentrate on CSAR and Special Missions while the army on general transport.

 

If the public opinion matters, then the S61 will have to be replaced. My opinion is that the RMAF is giving S61 a bad name. In the civillian world there is not a single fatal crash involving the S61. All the Nuri replacement contenders except the Superpuma family are relatively new aircraft and are still considered not a mature product. EH101 has a tail pylon cracking problem that was a suspect causing it to crash(fatal) in Canada. AW 139 has a nose up attitude and Agusta has impose some operating limitation and S92 still have some vibration issues.

[Md. Rudy 0]

As reported in Berita Harian today

 

".....Difahamkan, TUDM menyenarai pendek tiga model, termasuk EH101 Merlin dan NH-90, kedua-duanya keluaran Augusta Westland, selain AS532-U2 Cougar (Eurocopter)........."

 

My guess would be NH90 for CSAR & EH101 for the transport mission.

 

 

Well, Nuri was a good helicopter but I can't accept the fact that they are not even equipped with ELT. For a military helicopter with higher possiblity of being shot down/crash, the absence of ELT make me wonder if our govt value the life of our armed forces. For all we know, some survivors may still be alive after the lastest crash but since it took them about 6 days to locate the crash, a healthy person may die due starvation. ELT would have made the different.

 

And I bet the VVIP Nuri transport is equipped with ELT because VVIP life are more valuable than regular armed forces personnels. I'm sad.

 

 

 

 

 

[A Fira 0]

As reported in Berita Harian today

 

".....Difahamkan, TUDM menyenarai pendek tiga model, termasuk EH101 Merlin dan NH-90, kedua-duanya keluaran Augusta Westland, selain AS532-U2 Cougar (Eurocopter)........."

 

My guess would be NH90 for CSAR & EH101 for the transport mission.

Well, Nuri was a good helicopter but I can't accept the fact that they are not even equipped with ELT. For a military helicopter with higher possiblity of being shot down/crash, the absence of ELT make me wonder if our govt value the life of our armed forces. For all we know, some survivors may still be alive after the lastest crash but since it took them about 6 days to locate the crash, a healthy person may die due starvation. ELT would have made the different.

 

And I bet the VVIP Nuri transport is equipped with ELT because VVIP life are more valuable than regular armed forces personnels. I'm sad.

 

 

NH90 was chosen by the Australian A/F for their CSAR mission.

[Geoff R. 0]

If the public opinion matters, then the S61 will have to be replaced. My opinion is that the RMAF is giving S61 a bad name. In the civillian world there is not a single fatal crash involving the S61. All the Nuri replacement contenders except the Superpuma family are relatively new aircraft and are still considered not a mature product. EH101 has a tail pylon cracking problem that was a suspect causing it to crash(fatal) in Canada. AW 139 has a nose up attitude and Agusta has impose some operating limitation and S92 still have some vibration issues.

 

Fira, several statements you made are wrong. Let me explain.

 

"In the civillian world there is not a single fatal crash involving the S61"

 

There have been many fatal commerical S-61 accidents - including several that were not due to pilot error. One of the "famous" ones being the Los Angeles Airways S-61 crash caused by a blade seperating. You can read the accident report at http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR69-07.pdf

 

Other fatal accidents have occured in the US, UK and Spain for sure.

 

"EH101 has a tail pylon cracking problem that was a suspect causing it to crash(fatal) in Canada"

 

The EH101 has never had a tail pylon cracking problem that I have heard of. For sure it has been reported Canada has suffered minor cracking of the tail rotor hub components which have now been fixed. Within a few days of the fatal accident you refer to in Canada, technical problems with the aircraft were ruled out. You can read one of many reports at http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story...nt-interim.html

 

"AW 139 has a nose up attitude and Agusta has impose some operating limitation"

 

A friend who flies the AW139 says there is no special limits imposed on the AW139 - just the normal limits in the flight manual. For sure the AW139 hovers nose up but then all modern fast helicopters do. Something linked to having the main rotor mounted in the aircraft tilted forward to ensure the fuselage is level in fast cruise if I remember correctly.

 

"S92 still have some vibration issues"

 

I have heard this also and as a result some operators are limiting cruise speed to much less than maximum. However, I am sure Sikorsky will be working on this problem and have it sorted long before a Nuri replacement is delivered.

 

 

Geoff

 

[Rozhan 0]

Well, Nuri was a good helicopter but I can't accept the fact that they are not even equipped with ELT.

 

A certain 'high ranking' politician was quoted as saying that with ELTs, crashed planes can be spotted by the 'enemy', therefore no ELTs were equipped on the Nuris (in case should any crashes). After the crash, the politician said ELTs will be installed on all the Nuris, and removed in times of conflict so that the 'enemy' can't find RMAF planes should any crash.

 

And perhaps RMAF will not be able to find its own planes should they crash.

 

How brilliant!

Edited August 15, 2007 by Rozhan

[Geoff R. 0]

Re my earlier post if you just are considering Malaysia then you may well be corerct in saying there have been no fatal accidents involving commercial S-61s.

 

Geoff

Edited August 15, 2007 by Geoff R.

[Fitri Shukri 0]

A certain 'high ranking' politician was quoted as saying that with ELTs, crashed planes can be spotted by the 'enemy', therefore no ELTs were equipped on the Nuris (in case should any crashes). After the crash, the politician said ELTs will be installed on all the Nuris, and removed in times of conflict so that the 'enemy' can't find RMAF planes should any crash.

 

And perhaps RMAF will not be able to find its own planes should they crash.

 

How brilliant!

 

Yet again, another stupid remark made by a politician... I wonder who is that person

[Md. Rudy 0]

A certain 'high ranking' politician was quoted as saying that with ELTs, crashed planes can be spotted by the 'enemy', therefore no ELTs were equipped on the Nuris (in case should any crashes). After the crash, the politician said ELTs will be installed on all the Nuris, and removed in times of conflict so that the 'enemy' can't find RMAF planes should any crash.

 

And perhaps RMAF will not be able to find its own planes should they crash.

 

How brilliant!

 

I sure hope this politician is not i charge of our defense ministry! Obviously he never study military tactics & doctrines.

 

Unlike USA, our armed forces numbers & equipments are meant for self-defense, not for offensive mission to attack other country. In time of conflict, there are good chances our helicopter will crash within our own border since most missions will be carried out within our own border.

 

 

[Rozhan 0]

 

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wed...icle/index_html

 

The "removed in times of conflict so that the 'enemy' can't find RMAF planes should any crash" part was quoted in an interview in TV3 news.

 

Amazingly, the VVIP aircraft and more 'state of the art' planes that would whet the appetite of the 'enemy' even more than the 'flying coffins' are equipped with ELTs.

 

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Sun...icle/index_html