Jump to content
MalaysianWings - Malaysia's Premier Aviation Portal
Mohd Azizul Ramli

MAS A380 - Fleet to be Retained

Recommended Posts

Makes one wonder why neither manufacturer have been moved thus far to develop a short range version of their respective big mamas for the Chinese like what Boeing previously did with the 747SR and 747-400D for the Japanese market ?

Maybe A380SR or 747-8D to move the masses en masse​ between the more congested airports ? :)

 

Thats because the Japanese airlines did not order the 747-8D.... hence a non-starter. What actually replaced the 747-400D in Japan? 777-300 is getting a bit too old and 777-300ER is a bit too heavy and wasteful right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Thanks Hon Kit! :hi:

 

All contemporary airliners since the 1960s are literally tin cans, except for the 787s, made of composites :)

 

Can the A380-800 fit 700+, I read somewhere that the max was around 550 pax?

555 in 3 class configuration.. 700 is possible as single class. And with Airbus offering A380plus with seat config. of 11 abreast across, it can be higher...maybe shy of 1000?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can the A380-800 fit 700+, I read somewhere that the max was around 550 pax?

 

The A380-800 is certified for up to 868 passengers (538 on the main deck and 330 on the upper), achievable with a one-class configuration. Even with 700 pax, it is still some distance away from becoming a sardine can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Thats because the Japanese airlines did not order the 747-8D.... hence a non-starter. What actually replaced the 747-400D in Japan? 777-300 is getting a bit too old and 777-300ER is a bit too heavy and wasteful right?

 

Apparently it was replaced by the 787-9 Domestic version with 335 Y seats + 12 J, although on Seatguru it shows 377 Y seats with 34" pitch?!

Edited by Mohd Suhaimi Fariz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The A380-800 is certified for up to 868 passengers (538 on the main deck and 330 on the upper), achievable with a one-class configuration. Even with 700 pax, it is still some distance away from becoming a sardine can.

 

Imagine the amount of time it will require to unload and load all pax and baggage.....

 

So the early 5 birds acquired by SQ was a bit of a black sheep of the herd.... wonder if they are upgradable to become the later versions? In total how many of these black sheeps were built out of the totality of A380 production?

Edited by S V Choong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, an El Al 747 had been packed with 1122 people by the Israeli Air Force during an emergency evacuation of Jews from ethiopia. That was a record I think. Operation Solomon May 1991.

14000 jews evacuated over 36 hours with various aircraft stripped of all seats

Edited by Izanee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does MAB have any plans to change the seating layout?

If so, will these planes still be viable as a "super sub"?

 

There were plans to change the seating layout, but at the moment, it looks more likely that the current config will be retained.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does MAB have any plans to change the seating layout?

If so, will these planes still be viable as a "super sub"?

They plan to put 4 of the A380s into the charter fleet and the plan is to increase seating density when they are next in for heavy maintenance.

 

As for being super sub, they are retaining two aircraft for that purpose. I think this situation will be reviewed once their wide body shortage is solved with the arrival of the A359s and A332s.

Imagine the amount of time it will require to unload and load all pax and baggage.....

 

So the early 5 birds acquired by SQ was a bit of a black sheep of the herd.... wonder if they are upgradable to become the later versions? In total how many of these black sheeps were built out of the totality of A380 production?

Loading and unloading baggage isn't an issue as they are containerised - but for all 700 pax to be able to load and unload will be a challenge. Also, pax may need to wait longer for their luggage to arrive at the belts.

 

SQs early build birds are unique and would not be cost effective to rewire and rework. Maintenance for these frames is also different from the standard production builds. That was why they decided to replace them. Longer term, I can see SQ replace some of their A380s with the B779s that they have on order. But markets grow as time passes - so the A380s should have some role in the SQ group.

 

Coming back on topic - it would seem that MAB are stuck with the A380 and are now trying out various applications for it. They are no longer in the panicky mode of 2015-2016 and are taking time to evaluate their options. It should be an interesting time to watch what happens in the next two or three years.

Edited by flee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I think the tin can remarks is actually referring to hig density config of other carriers that offers umrah/haj to get better yield.

 

2. I gope MAS do offer some kind of business/ economy plus config if they do refurbish a380 because Malaysians not only sre capable of going to umrah akmost every yesr, theyre willing to pay more for comfort on the 9+ hours flight. I myself took up the option of paying extra 1k to travel on business seat in the a380 for both legs to and from Medina which I think was a steal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Japanese carriers always have the best cabin config when it comes to operation deployment. I think I saw ANA having nearly 7 types of cabin across the 777 fleet. Ranging Tin can widebody domestic star destroyer ship, stable okayish seating for standard international, comfortable as per peer seat count for international, and the so low amount of seats it looks crazy for long haul.

 

Over in Malaysia both on od and mh were playing Russian roulette on the 737s international with potential for bad cabins.

Edited by jahur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Japanese carriers always have the best cabin config when it comes to operation deployment. I think I saw ANA having nearly 7 types of cabin across the 777 fleet. Ranging Tin can widebody domestic star destroyer ship, stable okayish seating for standard international, comfortable as per peer seat count for international, and the so low amount of seats it looks crazy for long haul.

 

Over in Malaysia both on od and mh were playing Russian roulette on the 737s international with potential for bad cabins.

Japanese carriers tend to have premium-heavy configurations on their international widebodies. And it comes at a price. They know the Japanese market is prepared to pay. Can MH say the same for Malaysia?

 

Im also not sure I understand the comparison between JL/NHs 777s and MHs 738s. Last I checked, MH doesnt send 738s to Europe or across the Pacific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Japanese carriers tend to have premium-heavy configurations on their international widebodies. And it comes at a price. They know the Japanese market is prepared to pay. Can MH say the same for Malaysia?

 

Im also not sure I understand the comparison between JL/NHs 777s and MHs 738s. Last I checked, MH doesnt send 738s to Europe or across the Pacific.

Japan has the passenger volume so really there is no problem for high density domestic widebody there.

 

I'm talking about the disparity in cabin product just a months ago 9m-mlh was sent on bki-nrt while 9m-mli on bki-per and cabin crews were bombarded with complaints. Many of them had phobia looking at these aircraft registrations on their rosters. And operation still can't segment these planes out of regional when Japan is able to do it. They're treating most the 738 the same and rotate them on any destinations when there should be segments on certain sectors. The only thing they're careful at is not deploying the lower thrust rated Ms series 738 that has no overhead cabin life raft to India for the etops thing and that's it.

Edited by jahur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Reconfig to 700+ seats will take place until 2020

2. No sardine can as what you thinking , as I being told that flight crew and cabin crew rest compartments will be removed to give some space for galley and seats.

3. Main deck maintains 3-4-3 and 2-4-2 on upper deck. with 32 inch seat pitch.'

 

Some info about plan A380 for hajj/umrah;

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/airbuss-superjumbo-finds-new-life-on-malaysia-airlines-pilgrim-trips#Ut8AKd7FoCaKRpzs.97

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Reconfig to 700+ seats will take place until 2020

2. No sardine can as what you thinking , as I being told that flight crew and cabin crew rest compartments will be removed to give some space for galley and seats.

3. Main deck maintains 3-4-3 and 2-4-2 on upper deck. with 32 inch seat pitch.'

 

Some info about plan A380 for hajj/umrah;

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/airbuss-superjumbo-finds-new-life-on-malaysia-airlines-pilgrim-trips#Ut8AKd7FoCaKRpzs.97

 

I am pretty sure that the 700+ is not going to happen. They're going 500+ at most. They will also try to maintain at least the same seats to lavatories ratio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are already a few players in the region which are doing charters for Umrah - including Lion Air. It's perhaps better for MAB not to spent another few million to reconfigure just 2 A380s for the Umrah charter. The better option is for MAB to dispose of all the 6 A380s even at a loss - than to hold on to the planes which will cost more. Provided there's a buyer which so far no 2nd hand A380s have been able to be sold or leased out. However the longer the A380s are in MAB books, it will unlikely show a prift even in 2019 or 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the A380s go to the charter ops, it will no longer be in MAB's books. The charter operation will have its own AOC and structure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are already a few players in the region which are doing charters for Umrah - including Lion Air. It's perhaps better for MAB not to spent another few million to reconfigure just 2 A380s for the Umrah charter. The better option is for MAB to dispose of all the 6 A380s even at a loss - than to hold on to the planes which will cost more. Provided there's a buyer which so far no 2nd hand A380s have been able to be sold or leased out. However the longer the A380s are in MAB books, it will unlikely show a prift even in 2019 or 2020.

There's a huge demand for Umrah and Haj and there are many players. Problem is landing slots is limited to madinah and mekkah and there is even more restriction during the heavy haj season. Basically charter providers have to cut down the frequency and source pilgrims via feeding networks and finally deploying them in a combined larger planes. Also in 1,5 years time In the future All inbound planes to saudia have to be no older than 15 years old meaning many 744s may not be permitted. So far Lion Air only has A333s and others are Saudi Arabian airlines widebodies and probably few charter ops with 772s waiting to get their share, meaning a lot of ASEAN pilgrims may not be able to get their chance. Also there are a lot of them looking for premium config haj package but many of the players are dubbing one class economy high density. The CEO's idea is to capture the marketshare when others are expected to revise their operation due to the ruling. You have the demand but policy and operational requirements make it hard for pilgrims to get what they want.

 

Here comes another problem, many times the runways in Madinah and Mekkah are not in good shape and requires periods of maintenance. Payload restriction and temporary A380 barring comes in place this may come as another headache for MAS as they have to source out their A333s again and again some folks might get their booking via agents deferred etc. Other players will have headaches also as they're unable to deploy 747s due to the old plane barring rule.

Edited by jahur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Lion Air currently using their 744 for pilgrim flights?

 

I think they no longer operate the 744; it was replaced by A333s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a huge demand for Umrah and Haj and there are many players. Problem is landing slots is limited to madinah and mekkah and there is even more restriction during the heavy haj season. Basically charter providers have to cut down the frequency and source pilgrims via feeding networks and finally deploying them in a combined larger planes. Also in 1,5 years time In the future All inbound planes to saudia have to be no older than 15 years old meaning many 744s may not be permitted. So far Lion Air only has A333s and others are Saudi Arabian airlines widebodies and probably few charter ops with 772s waiting to get their share, meaning a lot of ASEAN pilgrims may not be able to get their chance. Also there are a lot of them looking for premium config haj package but many of the players are dubbing one class economy high density. The CEO's idea is to capture the marketshare when others are expected to revise their operation due to the ruling. You have the demand but policy and operational requirements make it hard for pilgrims to get what they want.

 

Here comes another problem, many times the runways in Madinah and Mekkah are not in good shape and requires periods of maintenance. Payload restriction and temporary A380 barring comes in place this may come as another headache for MAS as they have to source out their A333s again and again some folks might get their booking via agents deferred etc. Other players will have headaches also as they're unable to deploy 747s due to the old plane barring rule.

 

There is no airport in Mecca. Did you actually mean Medina and Jeddah ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MAB A380s are leased from a khazanah spv, leasing term could be favourable e.g by operating hours, % of seat sold, etc. A380 is likely a scapegoat for MAB continuous operation losses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is no airport in Mecca. Did you actually mean Medina and Jeddah ?

Yeap jeddah and medina.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a huge demand for Umrah and Haj and there are many players. Problem is landing slots is limited to madinah and mekkah and there is even more restriction during the heavy haj season. Basically charter providers have to cut down the frequency and source pilgrims via feeding networks and finally deploying them in a combined larger planes. Also in 1,5 years time In the future All inbound planes to saudia have to be no older than 15 years old meaning many 744s may not be permitted. So far Lion Air only has A333s and others are Saudi Arabian airlines widebodies and probably few charter ops with 772s waiting to get their share, meaning a lot of ASEAN pilgrims may not be able to get their chance. Also there are a lot of them looking for premium config haj package but many of the players are dubbing one class economy high density. The CEO's idea is to capture the marketshare when others are expected to revise their operation due to the ruling. You have the demand but policy and operational requirements make it hard for pilgrims to get what they want.

 

Here comes another problem, many times the runways in Madinah and Mekkah are not in good shape and requires periods of maintenance. Payload restriction and temporary A380 barring comes in place this may come as another headache for MAS as they have to source out their A333s again and again some folks might get their booking via agents deferred etc. Other players will have headaches also as they're unable to deploy 747s due to the old plane barring rule.

 

 

Given all these issues, does MAB still believe in keeping these whalejets for such charter? And for using these planes as "spares" for when the A330s are AOGed? This will be very very costly for MAB to maintained these or even 3 out of the A380s in serviceable condition and low usage and will bleed MAB into yearly losses for as long as it holds on to the jets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Given all these issues, does MAB still believe in keeping these whalejets for such charter? And for using these planes as "spares" for when the A330s are AOGed? This will be very very costly for MAB to maintained these or even 3 out of the A380s in serviceable condition and low usage and will bleed MAB into yearly losses for as long as it holds on to the jets.

 

MAB believes in placing these jets outside of MAB for such charters. Hence, the new AOC etc etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...