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MAB Proposed 25 New Widebody Aircraft Purchase in 2017


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#101 leon t

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:11 PM

It makes more economical sense for MAB just to stick to one fleet of aorcraft for its wide-body twins and gowith the A350s as it will already have the 6 leased A350s.  This will have more economic impact of having some economies of scale for parts, spares and maintenance as afterall MABis looking for a just 25 aircraft - and to split this into 2 different types of fleets ie AB and Boeing is not that good an idea as then would require 2 different set of crew qualifications and training and a whole lot more.  For MAB its just best to stick to just one type of widebody twin.



#102 flee

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:37 PM

It makes more economical sense for MAB just to stick to one fleet of aorcraft for its wide-body twins and gowith the A350s as it will already have the 6 leased A350s.  This will have more economic impact of having some economies of scale for parts, spares and maintenance as afterall MABis looking for a just 25 aircraft - and to split this into 2 different types of fleets ie AB and Boeing is not that good an idea as then would require 2 different set of crew qualifications and training and a whole lot more.  For MAB its just best to stick to just one type of widebody twin.

I think most aviation industry professionals know that but the Malaysian PM has more important priorities on his mind.

 

It should be interesting to see how MAB copes with A359/RR Trent XWB and B789/GEnx-1B in their fleet. And I think MAB still needs to do MRO for the A380/RR Trent 900 for their sister charter company.


Edited by flee, 19 September 2017 - 04:42 PM.


#103 Mr.Bandit

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:10 PM

It should be interesting to see how MAB copes with A359/RR Trent XWB and B789/GEnx-1B in their fleet. And I think MAB still needs to do MRO for the A380/RR Trent 900 for their sister charter company.

 

As I being informed, light maintenance will only be carry on by MAB powerplant crew. Other than that, further maintenance of the engine e.g Trent 900 and PW4070, soon Trent XWB will be transported to Singapore by freighter aircraft such as Cargolux when needed. They decided to choose GEnx-1B because of commonality with LEAP-1B on their future B737 MAX and both are Boeing. But for flight crew perspective, I do not have so much clue.



#104 leon t

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 10:25 AM

if MAB does split its 25 aircraft orders to be split between AB and B, then its like going back tothe old MAS days.  It will never be abe to gain from the economies of having only one type of widebody fleet and will have more costs of having 2 different types of aircaft with different crew training and even on maintenance, parts and spares.  Even crewing will be not so felxible as there be AB and B crews instead of haing just one fleet type of aircraft.  This be also compromised by having even 2 types of engines if it chooses AB and B and associated higher costs of maintaining 2 different spares.  Looks like MAB havent learn from the past MAS issues of having small different types of aircrafts and even different engines forthe same type of aircraft and hence MAB will never be as efficient as any othe better run and profitable airlines.


Edited by leon t, 21 September 2017 - 10:28 AM.


#105 jahur

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 11:14 AM

if MAB does split its 25 aircraft orders to be split between AB and B, then its like going back tothe old MAS days.  It will never be abe to gain from the economies of having only one type of widebody fleet and will have more costs of having 2 different types of aircaft with different crew training and even on maintenance, parts and spares.  Even crewing will be not so felxible as there be AB and B crews instead of haing just one fleet type of aircraft.  This be also compromised by having even 2 types of engines if it chooses AB and B and associated higher costs of maintaining 2 different spares.  Looks like MAB havent learn from the past MAS issues of having small different types of aircrafts and even different engines forthe same type of aircraft and hence MAB will never be as efficient as any othe better run and profitable airlines.

I dun believe in one type aircraft when mixed market and demand and even airport elevation, parking fees, cost index based on preplanned flightplan effects the planes operational capability a lot. Payload cruise as well some airlines opted planes that save more on heavier payload some opted planes tha perform more efficiently on lower load. ICN to bki are operated by many types of aircrafts on 6 operators. Each of them leveraging on the aircrafts beneficial specifics and parent company assets. One type commonality works on LCC as unified branding and cross operational efficiency and cheaper terminal psc's cheaper turnaround and bean counter is there.

Fsc just has different operation. Even on GA company i used to work in, they operate multiple types of heli's and fixed wings from different manufacturers instead of having just solely bell or airbus helicopter. Different sector different requirement even different STOLport allowance and fees.

Edited by jahur, 21 September 2017 - 11:16 AM.


#106 leon t

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 12:50 PM

MAB/MAS should still consider only one type of aircraft for its 25 widebody planes as again splitting into just a few planes from AB and Boeing will not help with its efficiencies of crew management and economics of scale.  The A350 and the B787 are nearly the same in terms of passenger capacity, range etc and eve AB claims its A350 is more fuel efficient. These 2 planes are not very different from each other and hence having only one type will help MAS tremendously in cost savings.  Unless MAS is a big airline like SIA or JAL or Cathay then it can afford to have 2 to 3 types of aircrafts.  SIA have 67 orders for the A350 alone and  another 40 of Boeings.  But MAS with its needs of just 25 aircrafts should just stick to one for the meantime until it can grow much more in the future.   Just like it has just 6 A380s and have been struggling to even fill up the seats. This type of aircraft is identified and should suit MAS well with pax capacity between 250 to 260 plus. Mainstream airline is very different from that of general aviation whch is more on doing charters for small group of pax ie mainly between 4 to 8 pax and often to smaller airports etc.



#107 KK Lee

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 12:57 PM

MAB/MAS should still consider only one type of aircraft for its 25 widebody planes as again splitting into just a few planes from AB and Boeing will not help with its efficiencies of crew management and economics of scale.  The A350 and the B787 are nearly the same in terms of passenger capacity, range etc and eve AB claims its A350 is more fuel efficient. These 2 planes are not very different from each other and hence having only one type will help MAS tremendously in cost savings.  Unless MAS is a big airline like SIA or JAL or Cathay then it can afford to have 2 to 3 types of aircrafts.  SIA have 67 orders for the A350 alone and  another 40 of Boeings.  But MAS with its needs of just 25 aircrafts should just stick to one for the meantime until it can grow much more in the future.   Just like it has just 6 A380s and have been struggling to even fill up the seats. This type of aircraft is identified and should suit MAS well with pax capacity between 250 to 260 plus. Mainstream airline is very different from that of general aviation whch is more on doing charters for small group of pax ie mainly between 4 to 8 pax and often to smaller airports etc.


Yield could only optimize when supply match demand.

A reason why mh failed to make profit on regional and long haul routes.

#108 jahur

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 04:35 PM

MAB/MAS should still consider only one type of aircraft for its 25 widebody planes as again splitting into just a few planes from AB and Boeing will not help with its efficiencies of crew management and economics of scale.  The A350 and the B787 are nearly the same in terms of passenger capacity, range etc and eve AB claims its A350 is more fuel efficient. These 2 planes are not very different from each other and hence having only one type will help MAS tremendously in cost savings.  Unless MAS is a big airline like SIA or JAL or Cathay then it can afford to have 2 to 3 types of aircrafts.  SIA have 67 orders for the A350 alone and  another 40 of Boeings.  But MAS with its needs of just 25 aircrafts should just stick to one for the meantime until it can grow much more in the future.   Just like it has just 6 A380s and have been struggling to even fill up the seats. This type of aircraft is identified and should suit MAS well with pax capacity between 250 to 260 plus. Mainstream airline is very different from that of general aviation whch is more on doing charters for small group of pax ie mainly between 4 to 8 pax and often to smaller airports etc.

It seems you dont seem to fathom cost index operations on different aircrafts. You're aware that for flights to certain airports have different configuration requirements and have different costs even with the same block hours and flight time due to climate terrain traffic etc. Even mh has several different engine rated 738s. The cost variation may look small but accumulate that in a year and it costs issues when u have potential revenue lapsing due to one type configuration. Im not asking to operate 3-4 type widebody but mh has to operate dual type for its 8-12hour sectors if its wants to yield properly. The a330-900neo/b787-9 is best suited for it. The a330-900neo hasnt flown yet and real operating+cost data is not out so it can only source from the a333/a332ceo which is already a good platform but how long can the planes be ready for delivery. The 787 is a different story paper data and even input from pilots and tech crew can be collected. Adding additional A350-9 is expensive unit price itself cost 40% more than the 789 for retaining the same seating capacity of what the a339neo and b789 can offer.

So in conclusion if mh is smart enough which hardly occurs, it would've firmed up 8-10 b789s and replace the current 15 a333 with a330-900neos that'll take trough stages. Theyll have safe space to compete yet not to over expand.

Edited by jahur, 23 September 2017 - 04:38 PM.


#109 Amirul Mazlan

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:13 PM

Your argument is right jahur but its not justified with only 8 78-9 and 6 A359?? They've gotta run a bigger WB operation to make this work. For now having 14 A359 seems much cost effective than having two difference competing type of aircraft

#110 flee

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 10:42 PM

Your argument is right jahur but its not justified with only 8 78-9 and 6 A359?? They've gotta run a bigger WB operation to make this work. For now having 14 A359 seems much cost effective than having two difference competing type of aircraft

Yes, I think that is the consensus in most discussions I have read. 

 

When the fleet is small, the cost of having a mixed fleet is not covered by the benefits due to certain fixed costs for maintaining the fleet. Economies of scale have not set in yet. So MAB should either have a A350 or B787 long haul fleet.

 

The A330Neo will be good for medium haul and can sometimes be stretched for 10-12 hour flights if there is a need. Of course, this only works if the price of the A330Neo makes sense. Right now, it does not - and that is what PB is bitching about. No orders will be dished out unless the price is acceptable to MAB as they know what kind of numbers are needed for their network.


Edited by flee, 23 September 2017 - 10:43 PM.


#111 jahur

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:20 AM

Your argument is right jahur but its not justified with only 8 78-9 and 6 A359?? They've gotta run a bigger WB operation to make this work. For now having 14 A359 seems much cost effective than having two difference competing type of aircraft

The A350-9 is still pricey for a 285-300 2 class cabin seater when theres the same capacity A339neo sitting in the corner and the cheaper long ranger b789 up and ready. Even d7 is cautious in the a350 n pushing on delivery for cheaper slots. The only thing airlines can leverage is the commonality platform on airbus and the wider cabin and certain cost advantage at certain sectors. Perhaps airbus should trim down the a350 costs. In this case 2-3 type widebody is still needed. 20-30 pax difference per sector in yield and route demand dynamic plays a lot.

#112 flee

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:30 AM

One of the problems MAB has on pricing is due to the fact that they will not be getting launch customer pricing - that is the result of previous managements not giving fleet planning its due importance. So the ship has sailed and they are no longer able to get low prices for newly launched aircraft.

 

D7's caution with the A350 is twofold - they don't want early frames because they need reliability. They cannot afford to have hangar queens (Indigo has many A320Neos sitting in the hangar waiting for replacement PW engines!) and have asked for later slots so that the plane will be sorted out by the time they take delivery. The second reason is the A330Neo launch has very much reduced the need for the A350 - I can foresee D7 converting half their A350 order to the A330Neo.



#113 S V Choong

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 02:10 PM

Hi guys, to cut long story short, is MH still thinking of those A330-900 neo? 

 

I hope they just focus on those A350-900/ 1000 and B787-9s/ 10s


Edited by S V Choong, 01 October 2017 - 02:11 PM.


#114 flee

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:37 PM

Malaysia Airlines CEO eyes A330neo tests as order decision nears
 





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