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Boeing 787 Failed To Kill The A330 And NMA Would Cannibalize The 737, Airbus Asserts


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#1 flee

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 01:23 AM

Interesting Forbes article reporting on what Airbus has claimed:

 

Speaking in advance of the delivery ceremony for TAP’s new A330-900 aircraft, Airbus A330 head of marketing, Crawford Hamilton, asserted that Boeing’s 787 had failed to kill the A330 program.
 
Hamilton also suggested that, not only is a Boeing NMA (new midsized aircraft) unnecessary, but it would actually cannibalize orders for Boeing’s 737 if it were to be built.
 
“We’ve got the right aircraft everywhere for the airlines of the world,” Hamilton said, arguing that the current range of Airbus planes covers the world’s routes comprehensively while offering airlines flexibility and commonality of the fleet. He credited Boeing’s 787 for proving the business case for the Airbus A330.   
 
“What was the best thing ever to happen to the A330? The best thing was the launch of the 787 14 years ago,” he said. “I think it’s very interesting to see that the 787 failed in its mission to kill the A330. It was the best thing ever to happen because we sold 4,000 aircraft after it was launched than we had before.
 
“If we look at the position since 2014 and over the last four years, you’ll see that we are around 419 sold versus 415 787. If you take out the 787-10, that’s another 40 off that total on the 787. So, really we have outsold the aircraft.”
 
More:

 



#2 Josh T

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 03:54 AM

I love the A330. It's beautiful and quiet. No other aircraft (apart from the A380) surpassed it...until I flew on the A350! I hate the 787 and the 777 is do noisy.

#3 Mohd Suhaimi Fariz

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 08:39 AM

The largest A330neo orders are from an airline that was never a big Boeing operator in the first place. Heck the number of 787 deliveries is almost 3x the number of A330neo orders.

 

It may not kill the A330, but it forced Airbus to invest in updating an antiquated aircraft and diverting resources from other programs.



#4 Lim Kar Yong

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 09:39 AM

I love the A330. It's beautiful and quiet. No other aircraft (apart from the A380) surpassed it...until I flew on the A350! I hate the 787 and the 777 is do noisy.

Agreed. Apart from the noise level, the typical seating arrangement of 2-4-2 in A330 suits me well as I am an oversized person (and can't afford to sit in the front cabin). The 787 3-3-3 seating is too cramped for me and I pity the person next to me as I would have encroached into his/her space. The typical 3-4-3 seating in 777 doesn't help either as most airlines now offer this configuration, except SQ (and who else?) that still offers 3-3-3. 



#5 flee

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 10:19 AM

I love the A330. It's beautiful and quiet. No other aircraft (apart from the A380) surpassed it...until I flew on the A350! I hate the 787 and the 777 is do noisy.

I think it is quiet for those seated ahead of the engines. You only hear wind noise.

 

I would like to try the A339 at around row 40 to hear what the noise levels are.


The largest A330neo orders are from an airline that was never a big Boeing operator in the first place. Heck the number of 787 deliveries is almost 3x the number of A330neo orders.

 

It may not kill the A330, but it forced Airbus to invest in updating an antiquated aircraft and diverting resources from other programs.

I think it is good that airlines have a choice. No single aircraft can fulfill all the needs for airlines - so it is good to have different models from different OEMs to choose from. It is interesting to note that despite having the B787 and A350 in the market, orders for the A330 are still coming in.



#6 Jeremiah Wong

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 10:28 AM

The largest A330neo orders are from an airline that was never a big Boeing operator in the first place. Heck the number of 787 deliveries is almost 3x the number of A330neo orders.
 
It may not kill the A330, but it forced Airbus to invest in updating an antiquated aircraft and diverting resources from other programs.

For the record, they WERE a Boeing operator in the first place. It wasn’t until Boeing failed to offer them good price on the 733 replacement that they went Airbus and the rest is history. Boeing tried to pitch the 787-10 to them so hard but the fact is they’re already a huge and solid Airbus customer. Well, unless the 339 goes terribly wrong, it’s hard to see them order Boeing.

#7 flee

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:27 AM

For the record, they WERE a Boeing operator in the first place. It wasn’t until Boeing failed to offer them good price on the 733 replacement that they went Airbus and the rest is history. Boeing tried to pitch the 787-10 to them so hard but the fact is they’re already a huge and solid Airbus customer. Well, unless the 339 goes terribly wrong, it’s hard to see them order Boeing.

Yes, they had over 30 B733s and Boeing was over confident.

 

I think that the A339 will be a very low cost upgrade and update for them as their infrastructure is geared for Airbus equipment. IMHO B787 will not give them a significant competitive advantage because most B787 operators already use 9 abreast seating to improve CASK. The A339 costs less to buy (hence lease rates will also be lower) and is just a simple upgrade for them.

 

I believe that the A330Neo will continue to receive small and steady orders in the coming years as airlines retire their old aircraft. Orders will probably be higher if the oil price goes up and stays up.



#8 KK Lee

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 01:28 PM

787 was meant for 767 replacement/market segment and stretched to A333/772 market segment. 

 

A330 is thriving despite its age due to upgrade and neo, also mean A330neo has taken orders away from A330 replacement i.e A350 e.g. D7.


Edited by KK Lee, 29 November 2018 - 01:28 PM.


#9 flee

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 01:39 PM

A330 is thriving despite its age due to upgrade and neo, also mean A330neo has taken orders away from A330 replacement i.e A350 e.g. D7.

I think Airbus has decided that the A350 has sufficient orders and stopped the launch offers because it still needed to recoup its R&D expenditure. A330Neo has relatively low R&D costs and can be sold quite cheaply (about USD 30m less than the A350 was generally mentioned). Airbus has now accepted that it has to face the market with the A330Neo and A350 as one "family" of airliners.



#10 S V Choong

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 03:34 PM

Airbus just love to talk loud but their marketing studies seems like they often tried to match or out do Boeing....

 

Look at what happened to:

 

1. The A340 programme - thought they can out do the 777s.

2. The A380 programme - thought they can sell more than 500 of them.

 

It's too early to say whether the A330 NEO is successful and also the A350...  Airbus should have learnt their lesson to shut their pie hole....... as situation can change and often move quickly.


Edited by S V Choong, 29 November 2018 - 03:37 PM.


#11 flee

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 04:38 PM

Airbus just love to talk loud but their marketing studies seems like they often tried to match or out do Boeing....

 

Look at what happened to:

 

1. The A340 programme - thought they can out do the 777s.

2. The A380 programme - thought they can sell more than 500 of them.

 

It's too early to say whether the A330 NEO is successful and also the A350...  Airbus should have learnt their lesson to shut their pie hole....... as situation can change and often move quickly.

They are just doing what most commercial companies do - trying to sell their products. It is good to have competition, otherwise companies get lazy and produce substandard stuff.

 

Just look at Intel - before AMD released their Ryzen processors, Intel had the market to themselves and brought out new processors with hardly any improvements. But look at them now - they are scrambling to get new designs out and their supply chain is suffering. So they have not invested in their back end production facilities and were caught with their pants down.

 

I think you cannot look at A340 in isolation - A330/A340 was one programme, they are family members. The A330 for short to medium haul and the A340 for long haul. These days, the A330 can do it all - so there is no longer a need for the A340. The B777-200 was Airbus' A340-300's original competitor and Airbus did OK with that. It was only the A345/346 that failed miserably because the B77W exceeded all performance expectations, including beating the B744.

 

The A380 was late and it coincided with a change of thinking because airlines now prefer more frequency for their customers' convenience.

 

We are lucky that airlines now have a choice of quality aircraft. Boeing can no longer buy out smaller competitors (like MD) and shut them down. They really need to work their butts out and earn the respect of their customers now. If you hate Airbus, you can at least be grateful that they are pushing Boeing into making better aircraft!



#12 S V Choong

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 09:36 AM

They are just doing what most commercial companies do - trying to sell their products. It is good to have competition, otherwise companies get lazy and produce substandard stuff.

 

Just look at Intel - before AMD released their Ryzen processors, Intel had the market to themselves and brought out new processors with hardly any improvements. But look at them now - they are scrambling to get new designs out and their supply chain is suffering. So they have not invested in their back end production facilities and were caught with their pants down.

 

I think you cannot look at A340 in isolation - A330/A340 was one programme, they are family members. The A330 for short to medium haul and the A340 for long haul. These days, the A330 can do it all - so there is no longer a need for the A340. The B777-200 was Airbus' A340-300's original competitor and Airbus did OK with that. It was only the A345/346 that failed miserably because the B77W exceeded all performance expectations, including beating the B744.

 

The A380 was late and it coincided with a change of thinking because airlines now prefer more frequency for their customers' convenience.

 

We are lucky that airlines now have a choice of quality aircraft. Boeing can no longer buy out smaller competitors (like MD) and shut them down. They really need to work their butts out and earn the respect of their customers now. If you hate Airbus, you can at least be grateful that they are pushing Boeing into making better aircraft!

 

They are acting like Samsung trying to demonise Apple product.  If they want to be the King of the jungle, they should stop that because Airbus isn't a personal consumer product.  Even after years of trying, Samsung is still unable to dethrone Apple as the market trend setter.  Whether you like it or not, Apple is the market lead and trend setter in the mobile phone sector.

 

Airbus' statements are often short-sighted and won't hold water through time.  Only companies with inferiority complex will make such silly comments by defaming others.  I don't see company B defaming company A in similar fashion.

 

Am I the only one in thinking Company B actually produce better planes than Company A?  Company B is the trend setter and their B787 forced company A to come up with the A350.  The A330 NEO would have been the A350 if it wasn't due to the protest of Qatar Airways forcing them to come up with a whole new design to match the B787.

 

I don't hate Airbus, but I do think they produce boring looking planes that doesn't produce any chemistry to cause the heart to excel.  A380, A320 and A350....  for example.


Edited by S V Choong, 30 November 2018 - 09:37 AM.


#13 flee

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:50 AM

Frankly, I don't really get too bothered with what they say. I think over the years, JL is more of a loudmouth - but that is his character and he helped built Airbus sales to 50% market share. But Boeing is no angel either. Like I said earlier, it is good airlines have choices - the competition will improve products.

 

I fly in aircraft from both OEMs and all I can say is that their new aircraft are better than their old. The ones I tend to avoid are those with poor seat comfort - but these have more to do with particular airlines rather than aircraft.

 

It is good to have choice - that is why some people are A fanbois and others may be B fanbois. Yet others could not be bothered! :)



#14 Jeremiah Wong

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 10:35 PM

They are acting like Samsung trying to demonise Apple product.  If they want to be the King of the jungle, they should stop that because Airbus isn't a personal consumer product.  Even after years of trying, Samsung is still unable to dethrone Apple as the market trend setter.  Whether you like it or not, Apple is the market lead and trend setter in the mobile phone sector.
 
Airbus' statements are often short-sighted and won't hold water through time.  Only companies with inferiority complex will make such silly comments by defaming others.  I don't see company B defaming company A in similar fashion.
 
Am I the only one in thinking Company B actually produce better planes than Company A?  Company B is the trend setter and their B787 forced company A to come up with the A350.  The A330 NEO would have been the A350 if it wasn't due to the protest of Qatar Airways forcing them to come up with a whole new design to match the B787.
 
I don't hate Airbus, but I do think they produce boring looking planes that doesn't produce any chemistry to cause the heart to excel.  A380, A320 and A350....  for example.


Boeing existed since 50s and Airbus started in 80s mate. It counts as an achievement for Airbus to achieve 40% market share and they have never intended to be king (though they were for few years from 2001) coz the EU won’t want to upset US by overtaking them. Remember there’re also a few failures produced by Boeing eg. 717, 767-400 which was unable to compete with A330 at all. Don’t worry, Airbus might be losing market share but they’re not short of blue chip customers like Delta/CX/SQ and so on. If QF went for A350 for their ultra long haul project, it’s gonna boost A350 program further.

#15 Radzi

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 02:09 PM

Competition is a good thing.



#16 Mohd Suhaimi Fariz

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 03:35 PM

Remember there’re also a few failures produced by Boeing eg. 717, 767-400 which was unable to compete with A330 at all.

 

To be fair, the 717 is a step-child. It's a McDonnell Douglas aircraft & the reason Boeing didn't go all out in marketing the 717 is because it was a direct competitor to the 737. Meanwhile the 767-400 apparently was designed specifically for the airlines that bought them - Continental & Delta, as a replacement for their DC-10 & L-1011 fleets respectively.



#17 flee

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 12:29 AM

 

Boeing’s origin dates to 1916 when the American timber merchant William E. Boeing founded Aero Products Company shortly after he and U.S. Navy officer Conrad Westervelt developed a single-engine, two-seat seaplane, the B&W. Renamed Boeing Airplane Company in 1917, the enterprise built “flying boats” for the Navy during World War I, and in the 1920s and ’30s it successfully sold its trainers, pursuit planes, observation craft, torpedo planes, and patrol bombers to the U.S. military. 

 

More here: https://www.britanni.../Boeing-Company



#18 flee

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:44 PM

ANALYSIS: Is first delivery a new dawn for A330neo?

 

With the first delivery to TAP Air Portugal successfully negotiated, the clouds that have stubbornly clung to the Airbus A330neo programme should now be lifting.
 
But despite reaching this milestone – in record time too – there remains a nagging sense that something is amiss with the widebody. Whether that is an issue of perception or an uncomfortable reality, is harder to gauge, however.
 
Perhaps the most perceptive comment on the programme came from Domhnal Slattery, chief executive of Avolon, speaking during the TAP delivery ceremony.
 
"It is the most technologically advanced airplane in its class," he said. "The challenge we all face now is to ensure that every airline in the world that could operate [the A330neo], does operate it."
 
While not intended as a direct criticism of Airbus, Slattery's comments still jarred among the usual platitudes of a hand-over ceremony.
 
In fact, Slattery goes so far as to suggest that Airbus "undersold" the widebody "for some time", with its emphasis on the relative simplicity of the re-engining process "not reflective of the reality".
 
"Properly framed, the A330neo is a smaller A350, just not as expensive," he says.
 


#19 Jeremiah Wong

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 08:27 PM

To be fair, the 717 is a step-child. It's a McDonnell Douglas aircraft & the reason Boeing didn't go all out in marketing the 717 is because it was a direct competitor to the 737. Meanwhile the 767-400 apparently was designed specifically for the airlines that bought them - Continental & Delta, as a replacement for their DC-10 & L-1011 fleets respectively.


Excellent justification!

#20 S V Choong

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 09:42 AM

Excellent justification!

 

However direct it may be the 717 to the 737 as a competitor.  The 717 was demoted to a regional airliner, which is a far cry from her more capable siblings - the MD80 and MD90s.  Boeing is now struggling in the regional airliner sector to counteract with Airbus' A220.  






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