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Cayman B733 & LAN Chile B763 Near Midair Collision

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From AVHerald:

 

Cayman B733 and LAN Chile B763 at New York on Jul 5th 2008, near midair collision?

By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Jul 8th 2008 16:07Z, last updated Tuesday, Jul 8th 2008 16:07Z

 

According to initial reports by Air Traffic Controllers' Union a Cayman Airways Boeing 737-300, flight KX792 from Grand Cayman (Cayman Islands) to New York JFK,NY (USA), was on approach to runway 22L at JFK. The crew decided to initiate a go-around for unknown reasons.

 

At the same time a LAN Chile Boeing 767-300, registration CC-CXD performing flight LA553 from New York JFK,NY (USA) to Santiago (Chile), was cleared to takeoff on runway 13R.

 

The Air Traffic Controllers union now claims, that the airplanes came within 100 feet vertically and no lateral separation with the radar targets merging on the screen.

 

The FAA states, that there was no danger and the operation normal. Radar data show, that the minimum separation was 300 feet and half a mile lateral. The air traffic controllers on duty turned the landing aircraft to the left and the departing aircraft to the right, so that they followed diverging flight pathes.

 

Cayman Airways denies, that any of their aircraft was involved in such an incident.

 

The NTSB has started a formal investigation, stating, that the minimum distance between the aircraft is not yet established. A preliminary result is to be expected this week.

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Last time, while touching down @JFK, from the nose view camera onboard EK, I can see an AA mad dog still taking off on the same runway. I guess it's normal for busy airport like that :S

Edited by Seth K

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Last time, while touching down @JFK, from the nose view camera onboard EK, I can see an AA mad dog still taking off on the same runway. I guess it's normal for busy airport like that :S

 

A mad dog taking off desperately chasing by EK! Sorry, I couldn't resists. :rofl: :rofl:

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When I watched a documentary on TV about Air Traffic controll and human effects a few years ago, controllers said that " equipments are too old and they are broken up often, also we are working too hard so we are not resting enough in shifting or duty time in a week due less personel counts".

 

JFK area is the most dangerous airspace in the world, landing and departing frequent aprroximetly 1minute (+/-). If there weren't a incident caused by air traffic controls, this should to be ATC guys success works. (except accident by pilot mistakes)

 

This incident is really serious actuallt becouse of there shouldn't be over an over while taking off and missed approach traffics.I think (according me) go arounded traffic were too late to say his intentions and at the same time, mad dog (MD80/90) already started takeoff run.

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Last time, while touching down @JFK, from the nose view camera onboard EK, I can see an AA mad dog still taking off on the same runway. I guess it's normal for busy airport like that :S

When I was still in ATC, when I was sure that the aircraft ahead had reached V1 and was going to rotate and take off, it was technically legal to issue a "Clear land, one on runway..." to the aircraft on apprach, especially when they were already told to expect a late landing clearance in lieu of the runway getting vacated.

 

Very normal, actually.

 

Anyway to add on to the KX and DL scenario...

 

When KX initiated a go-around, it is their onus to do it and they do not need ATC's approval. Riding on that, the KX plane should have been familiar with the go-around procedures for that runway in JFK and followed the sequence according to their charts.

 

I have a feeling the DL plane while on the ground... was already rolling for take off, rotated, lifted into the skies and somehow met KX (whether maintaining altitude, or climbing too slowly) on the same runway heading. This was how the near miss occured. Perhaps it is time to re-look into the go-around / miss-approach procedures at JFK?

 

But it is hard for us to say because we weren't there to witness what happened. My comments here are purely based on speculation and what I think would have happened since I am an ex-ATC.

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When I was still in ATC, when I was sure that the aircraft ahead had reached V1 and was going to rotate and take off, it was technically legal to issue a "Clear land, one on runway..." to the aircraft on apprach, especially when they were already told to expect a late landing clearance in lieu of the runway getting vacated.

 

Very normal, actually.

 

Anyway to add on to the KX and DL scenario...

 

When KX initiated a go-around, it is their onus to do it and they do not need ATC's approval. Riding on that, the KX plane should have been familiar with the go-around procedures for that runway in JFK and followed the sequence according to their charts.

 

I have a feeling the DL plane while on the ground... was already rolling for take off, rotated, lifted into the skies and somehow met KX (whether maintaining altitude, or climbing too slowly) on the same runway heading. This was how the near miss occured. Perhaps it is time to re-look into the go-around / miss-approach procedures at JFK?

 

But it is hard for us to say because we weren't there to witness what happened. My comments here are purely based on speculation and what I think would have happened since I am an ex-ATC.

 

Was the process above as what ATC terms as piggy-back? :pardon: :help: Mr. Kandar and En. Jalil (Tower controller) said piggy-back one of the nerve-racking situation as a ATC :blink: (info during the KLIA Tower visit)

 

By the way Ryan, if you don't mind me asking here.. why did u quit ATC? Job too demanding? :blink:

Edited by Azrin A

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Was the process above as what ATC terms as piggy-back? :pardon: :help: Mr. Kandar and En. Jalil (Tower controller) said piggy-back one of the nerve-racking situation as a ATC :blink: (info during the KLIA Tower visit)

 

By the way Ryan, if you don't mind me asking here.. why did u quit ATC? Job too demanding? :blink:

Yes, piggy-back scenario IS very scary and the situation will spiral out of control if you do not have the right frame of mind. What I would have done in that instance was.....

 

1. If traffic is light, quickly get KX to make a visual turn IMMEDIATELY for the aerodrome circuit while making sure the DL was well climbing away on runway heading.

 

OR...

 

2. Instruct DL to level off while KX was carrying out the miss-approach procedure. This is dangerous as I could be flouting some noise abatement restriction for departing aircraft.

 

Either one, I am screwed, really. But better to avert disaster now then deal with the consequences later, rather than a fireball of body bits and aircraft parts strewn over a large area.

 

Both of these possibel outcomes would have been a very drastic measure and would definitely rattle nerves. An inquiry would have been effected as I am sure with the JFK incident.

 

On a personal note, I left ATC to pursue a career as a pilot with SQ/MI and THAT unfortunately didn't really work out. While I aced the practical, I crashed and burned during the theory which was ATPL. So kena terminated lah. MI was rather strict with their 2nd chances.

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