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Seth K

MAS Entry Into SkyTeam

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Hopefully that doesn't change too much with fleet rationalisation then.

 

KUL-HKT-KUL is now back to 2 flights daily :drinks:

 

Time for another trip .............

 

 

If what you're saying is indeed true, then it's quite shocking.

 

Ever wonder why your parents sent you to Australia ;)

 

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Ever wonder why your parents sent you to Australia ;)

 

No - cause I came here on my own. :p We did live in SYD for a while when I was a kid, but we moved around cause of Dad's work. I came to MEL in 02 for a holiday/MR from SIN but ended up having so much fun that I decided to stay for longer and ended up doing high school and enrolling in uni here. In Mum's words, 'one long, expensive holiday.' Will most prolly stay here permanently.

Edited by Keith T

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Summary:

 

This news article is about Bangkok Airways entry to SkyTeam but it has the MAS news in there. I thought it would be better to be brought out in a separate posting instead of the SkyTeam post.

 

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/06Jun2008_biz40.php

SkyTeam entry likely to be delayed Bangkok Airways facing competition

 

BOONSONG KOSITCHOTETHANA

 

ISTANBUL : Bangkok Airways has shown interest in joining SkyTeam, but its entry into the world's second-largest airline alliance may prove premature due to competition from two other carriers in Southeast Asia.

 

 

 

The privately owned carrier has emerged as a fresh candidate for SkyTeam, which is broadening its global network and connectivity.

 

 

 

''They (Bangkok Airways) have shown their interest but we have not really started the discussion with them,'' Leo van Wijk, chairman of the SkyTeam governing board, told the Bangkok Post on the sidelines of the International Air Transport Association's annual general meeting here earlier this week.

 

 

 

But the outcome of SkyTeam's ongoing talks with two potential members _ Malaysia Airlines and Vietnam Airlines _ could determine whether its entry is possible.

 

 

 

''Malaysia Airlines and Vietnam Airlines are, for the time being, our priority,'' Mr Van Wijk said.

 

 

 

He was quick to add, however, that Bangkok Airways ''is an option we would certainly like to consider before saying no to them.''

 

 

 

Asked whether the SkyTeam would only like to get only airlines from Southeast Asia on board, he said it might not necessarily be the case, because Bangkok Airways, Vietnam Airlines and Malaysia have deferent positions and geographical strengths.

 

 

 

Because SkyTeam has already committed to discussions with the other two carriers, the talks with Bangkok Airways will take place in a later stage.

 

 

 

Bangkok Airways's senior executives said the airline was approached by SkyTeam to join the group as the airline, which is celebrating its 40th anniversary, was growing from a regional player into an international carrier. Its planned flights to Europe in a few years could benefit from the alliance's network.

 

 

 

''Honestly, it is very hard to say about the possibility of Bangkok Airways joining SkyTeam until we really start talking to them, probably in September,'' a Bangkok Airways executive said.

 

 

 

SkyTeam is keen to add some Southeast Asian airlines to its membership, which includes 11 carriers including the Air France/KLM group and three ''associate'' airlines.

 

 

 

If Bangkok Airways is to join an alliance, SkyTeam will more likely be its choice rather than two other alliances; namely, Star Alliance and Oneworld. Thai Airways International is attached to Star Alliance, the world's largest in terms of membership and traffic volume.

 

 

 

Mr Van Wijk, also vice-chairman of Air France-KLM board, said SkyTeam expected to conclude talks with Vietnam Airlines this year, paving the way for its entry next year.

 

 

 

Discussions of the SkyTeam membership with Malaysia Airlines would take place by the end of this year or early next year for a possible entry in 2010, he added.

 

 

 

In India, SkyTeam has been in talks with two carriers, Kingfisher and Jet Airways, though it is more likely the group would only get one airline on board because both have similar types of operations, he explained.

 

 

 

''It is unlikely that we will be able to conclude the talks in 2008, but it is more of 2009 for the entry,'' he noted.

 

 

 

Industry analysts said it is more likely that Jet Airways would get on board due to its international operations while Kingfisher has yet to take off internationally. The SkyTeam is also wooing another mainland Chinese carrier into its league _ China Eastern _ in addition to China Southern, as well as Taiwan-based China Airlines.

 

 

----

So Vietnam Airlines entry will possibly be next year, while MAS may be in 2010. Interesting to follow the suit...

Edited by Azri M.

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I think SkyTeam is not ready to have 2 members from the South East Asia region (a situation like SQ and TG in Star Alliance). Therefore only who get appointed as a member first will succeed. The latter will be refused membership with such and such reasonings. As I highlighted in the SkyTeam thread many times, VN is the darling of AF (of course historical relationship between France and Vietnam is playing a crucial part here), I don't think MH stands a chance after being turned down since 2006. The recent news about AF acquiring some stakes in VN will put VN in a more favourable position as compared to our sad MH.

 

As for India, Jet Airways is currently having some association with CX's Asia Miles FFP, which can be said as their preference is more towards OneWorld membership. Kingfisher may be the best bet for SkyTeam. Kingfisher is already a partner of AF-KLM's Flying Blue FFP.

 

As for Bangkok Airways, I think the most that they can become is an associate airline member, nothing more, as they are too small.

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I think SkyTeam is not ready to have 2 members from the South East Asia region (a situation like SQ and TG in Star Alliance). Therefore only who get appointed as a member first will succeed. The latter will be refused membership with such and such reasonings. As I highlighted in the SkyTeam thread many times, VN is the darling of AF (of course historical relationship between France and Vietnam is playing a crucial part here), I don't think MH stands a chance after being turned down since 2006. The recent news about AF acquiring some stakes in VN will put VN in a more favourable position as compared to our sad MH.

 

As for India, Jet Airways is currently having some association with CX's Asia Miles FFP, which can be said as their preference is more towards OneWorld membership. Kingfisher may be the best bet for SkyTeam. Kingfisher is already a partner of AF-KLM's Flying Blue FFP.

 

As for Bangkok Airways, I think the most that they can become is an associate airline member, nothing more, as they are too small.

 

Agree with you, after VN joined ST, it is unlikely ST will accept MH as MH couldn’t add value to ST. Which also mean, in time to come, SGN will overtake KUL in traffic.

 

While everyone else is improving and growing, and we are falling behind. Wonder when will the gomen abandon the ignorant ‘malaysia bodoh’ spirit and revert to proven, tried and tested conventional economy theory and business model :( :angry:

 

:drinks:

 

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I think SkyTeam is not ready to have 2 members from the South East Asia region (a situation like SQ and TG in Star Alliance). Therefore only who get appointed as a member first will succeed. The latter will be refused membership with such and such reasonings. As I highlighted in the SkyTeam thread many times, VN is the darling of AF (of course historical relationship between France and Vietnam is playing a crucial part here), I don't think MH stands a chance after being turned down since 2006. The recent news about AF acquiring some stakes in VN will put VN in a more favourable position as compared to our sad MH.

 

This maybe your own personal view, so it doesnt mean that ST is having the same view as yours.

 

Agree with you, after VN joined ST, it is unlikely ST will accept MH as MH couldn’t add value to ST. Which also mean, in time to come, SGN will overtake KUL in traffic.

 

While everyone else is improving and growing, and we are falling behind. Wonder when will the gomen abandon the ignorant ‘malaysia bodoh’ spirit and revert to proven, tried and tested conventional economy theory and business model :( :angry:

 

:drinks:

In terms of network and also partners with ST airlines, MH is still a stands a better chance.

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In terms of network and also partners with ST airlines, MH is still a stands a better chance.

 

 

At present stage, MH has a better network than VN and good working relationship with KL but why is not admitted to ST early? MH is unlikely to grow in the next few years and won’t improve it chance to joint ST in 3 years time.

 

To join an alliance, airline need to meet the alliance expectation in service, connectivity, etc. Is MH willing to change to meet alliance expectation?

 

From what I understand, national pride (i.e. Malaysia bodoh attitude) prevented MH from joining alliance previously :( :angry:

 

:drinks:

 

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Forgive my ignorance, as I have never really followed this issue seriously. Anyone care to explain as to why is AF reluctant to accept MH in the alliance?

Edited by zaki

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From what I understand, national pride (i.e. Malaysia bodoh attitude) prevented MH from joining alliance previously :( :angry:

"previously" ?

I recall quite a recent declaration from dah-man himself (Datuk IJ lah), was it at BTP2 unveiling (?), that joining one of the major airline alliances is not MH's priority, but rather negotiated bilateral co-operations would be the way forward. Unless that is now consigned to 'past experience' and they done another mindset 180 turn :)

Edited by BC Tam

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Forgive my ignorance, as I have never really followed this issue seriously. Anyone care to explain as to why is AF reluctant to accept MH in the alliance?

This is what people are speculating... It has nothing to do with "national pride" of MAS.

 

Air France presently code shares with QANTAS via Singapore on their routes to Australia. If MAS were to enter the Skyteam Alliance, Air France would be obligated to code share their flights down under via KUL with MAS. This would bring down the yields they presently enjoy with their arrangement with QANTAS. This is why Air France is reluctant to allow MAS into the playground.

 

From what I see, MAS has an uphill battle with regards to entering Skyteam. To begin with, somehow Malaysia Airports has to somehow turn KUL around to improve yields and the demographics of the passengers utilising the airport. And this includes MAS paying attention to premium passengers (which seems to be the reverse they are doing). The white elephant that is KLIA is trying their damnest to even reach 25 million passengers annually, let alone have any premium passengers transitting through.

 

The Malaysian economy has improved since the crisis of 98 but not fast enough when compared to other developing nations like Vietnam. Political squabbling has also had a negative effect and hence enhancing the challenging uphill climb.

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This is what people are speculating... It has nothing to do with "national pride" of MAS.

 

You will be surprise if you know how they work or think at the top :pardon: :nea: :huh: B)

 

:drinks:

Edited by KK Lee

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To Zaki, years before Air France comes into the picture...

 

Ever wonder why MH seems so desperately wanting to join SkyTeam?

Because MH had turned down an INVITATION from British Airways and Qantas during the early years of the foundation of OneWorld Alliance. So, after turning down OneWorld and having both SQ and TG in Star Alliance, the only remaining alliance left to join is SkyTeam.

 

Why would BA and QF wanted MH to be part of OneWorld?

Simple, in a way, airline alliance is like some sort of brotherhood or sorority. In my opinion, OneWorld is pretty much a British Commonwealth alliance with major former British colonies are part of it (Australia's QF, Hong Kong's CX and the former Canada's Canadian Airlines). So, it is just natural that MH, being the flag carrier of Malaysia belongs to this gang. In addition, at that time, another former British colony's airline, our dearest SQ, has established some commitments with Star Alliance. This is also a major reason why MH was choosen (OneWorld perhaps wanted to have a neck to neck competition with Star Alliance in South East Asia with MH and SQ as their respective representatives).

 

Then why did MH turned down BA's and QF's INVITATION?

MH was a very strong airline back in the years 1998-2000, when this incident occured. So, being rather snobbish, MH put a condition to both BA and QF that in order for MH to accept the INVITATION, both BA and QF need to relocate their respective hubs from SIN to KUL, to which both airlines disagreed. Upon further discussions, MH decided NOT to join OneWorld Alliance, in view of its interest.

 

What was the immediate consequence?

Both BA and QF pulled out from KUL and never return until today. At the same time, both airlines strengthen their hubs in SIN. BA and QF then recruited CX to be part of their gang (which almost close the opportunities of all airlines in South East Asia to be part of OneWorld considering CX's extensive network in this region).

 

What happened next?

Then in 2006, feeling the crucial importance to be part of an alliance, MH starting to knock on Skyteam's door but was turned down, despite having KLM (SkyTeam's major partner) as 'best friends'. Air France keep on turning down MH (one of which is) to protect its profitable kangaroo route codeshare operations with QF. I also think SkyTeam is a gang for the former French-Dutch colonies (to which VN stands an extremely high chance to be appointed) although I admit that this fact is debatable. To AF, maybe MH and Skyteam are just 'wrong gang' no matter how eligible MH is, fact wise.

 

*I collected all the information from various sources, most of which from old threads in A.Net. I think the turning down of OneWorld's INVITATION is be THE BIGGEST mistake MH ever made in the entire 61 years of the airline's history.

 

All we can hope right now is AF dibukakan hati dan pintu hidayah to accept our sad MH as part of their gang. Or probably a miracle that OneWorld still wanting MH to be part of their gang.

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What was the immediate consequence?

BA and QF then recruited CX to be part of their gang (which almost close the opportunities of all airlines in South East Asia to be part of OneWorld considering CX's extensive network in this region).

 

Wasn't CX a founding member of OW? Or are you talking about events prior to OW's official launch in 1999?

I recall that part of the reason MH failed to join OW was because of CX's resistance. I think it was in 2000 that QF approached MH, offering to set up some joint venture which would eventually lead to MH's membership of OW.

 

edit - here's the article from way back about QF's efforts to court MH:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CW...e_6/ai_62527183

 

From a pax perspective OW does need a bigger SE Asian presence as HKG is hardly convenient as a SE Asian hub. However observing the way the main players (notably BA) operate they're more likely to recruit a "lesser" airline like VN than one which will create intra alliance competition on premier routes. Look at the conditions BA sought to place on LX for its membership bid (I wept when I read that LX was released from the OW MOU), and the recent recruits like MA, RJ and MX - they all do not have any significant duplication of the established players in their networks. JL is an exception but then again they've been trying to recruit JL forever, even before OW was officially announced.

 

I too am hoping for some sort of miracle that leads to MH joining OW as I really enjoyed my flights with MH, they're relatively cheap at the pointy end and I'd love to fly with them again, but the reality is it seems pretty unlikely. :(

Edited by Keith T

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Probably Keith. As I mentioned, most of the information are gathered from old threads in A.Net, which mean nobody know the exact story and could be just plain speculation or being added after being handed over from one person to another. However, thank you for the link to the airticle. That is one BIG article for me.

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While mr 019 was at the helm, decision was made not to join alliance. MH is a GLC, unless the top management is very persistent and determine, it is not easy for them to change the policy cause they will be seen doubting their mentor, predecessor and political master wisdom.

 

:drinks:

 

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Vietnam Airlines is expected to expand fiercely in the coming years, and might even 'outgrow' the current possibilities/destinations of MAS...

 

Also, they can offer two hubs, HAN and SGN :pardon:

 

Europe-HAN-North Asia (China, Korea and Japan (+ USA ?)) and Europe-SGN-South Asia (+ Australia/New Zealand) + USA...

 

Either way, MH or VN, ST needs a full-member in S-E Asia badly as soon as possible, even more so with the ever rising fuel-prices...

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To Zaki, years before Air France comes into the picture...

 

Thanks guys... A case of a little too late huh :rolleyes:

 

I thought MAS is on the right track to join the alliance with recent developments in codesharing partnership (China Southern, Alitalia etc.). Looks like no one really wants them. That's just sad. Try harder MAS!!!

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the article actually says to pave way for VN to join next year and have an on-going talk with MH to join in 2010.. which means both of the airlines stood a fair chance in joining ST.. not that ST will choose only one between VN n MH.. if ST will choose only one. probably they will evaluate both of them at the same time, choose the right candidate n forget the other.. but they are not.. they are hoping to hv MH in 2010.. so lets see how it goes.. MH is really desperate for an alliance in my opinion. it will at least increase yield n connectivity of its network.. if MH is not keen to join ST, like the others who had mentioned here, MH would not form the code share agreement with so many ST members..

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Really hope MH join Skyteam and the sooner the better.

ST presence in Aus/NZ is really lacking and MH services can plug the gap.

 

Hope van Wijk can sort out AF to smooth MH entry.

 

I really like MH and short haul KL (certainly do not want to set foot in the KL Y cabin of their 77W - thanks AF :finger: ).

I dislike AF. Have had 5 poor flights out of 5 with AF. An airline I try and avoid.

 

MH should have been in Skyteam years ago.

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Hmm,if VN is considered a membership in ST,when what's this all about?

 

(from Wikipedia,about Oneworld)

Vietnam Airlines - current member Japan Airlines has expressed a desire to recruit a member to expand the oneworld network in South East Asia. It plans to provide Vietnam Airlines with technological and operational knowhow to bring it up to oneworld standards, before sponsoring it for membership. The airline currently codeshares with American Airlines,Cathay Pacific, Japan Airlines and Qantas and is a member of Cathay Pacific's Asia Miles program.

 

Bit confused about this statement.Anybody could clarify about this?

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Hmm,if VN is considered a membership in ST,when what's this all about?

 

(from Wikipedia,about Oneworld)

 

 

Bit confused about this statement.Anybody could clarify about this?

 

Personally, would give Van Wijk more credibility than Wikipedia ;)

He was always a big supporter of getting MH into ST, when he was still KLM CEO...

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mh should make a relationship with a Airline like Emirates so it could get into an Alliance. As most of you know Emirates is expanding very fast. I do belive KLM codeshares with MH on the KL-SYD-BNE-KL route according to BNE airport website. So there could be an opputunity for MH to join Skyteam but then we have AF. :drinks: Besides MH needs to make a better product. :rolleyes:

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Personally, would give Van Wijk more credibility than Wikipedia ;)

He was always a big supporter of getting MH into ST, when he was still KLM CEO...

 

Oh,i see :) Thanks for the info,Uncle Pieter.At least it answers my curiosity.

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Tarmizi's post about this...

 

(from Wikipedia, about Oneworld)

 

Vietnam Airlines - current member Japan Airlines has expressed a desire to recruit a member to expand the oneworld network in South East Asia. It plans to provide Vietnam Airlines with technological and operational knowhow to bring it up to oneworld standards, before sponsoring it for membership. The airline currently codeshares with American Airlines,Cathay Pacific, Japan Airlines and Qantas and is a member of Cathay Pacific's Asia Miles program.

 

... lead me to discover from Airpearl that...

 

VN joining Skyteam is far from a certainty. Japan Airlines is also working with VN in the hope of preparing it for entry to Oneworld. It was only in April this year that JAL president was quoted as saying that having VN joining the Oneworld alliance "is an important task" ie. a priority.

 

Looks like MH is the back-up plan B for Skyteam - for if they can't get VN!

So, let us all solat hajat and do whatever the necessary so that JL's pursuit of VN will be fruitful and that SkyTeam has no other choice other than to appoint MH, of course with the help of Meneer Van Wijk.

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