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Boeing 787 Dreamliner

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Off-topic, even A350 production is expected to face a major delay. Has this become a norm for all newly developed aircraft?

 

I think it's probably more because of the radical technologies employed on the new planes that's causing the delays. When they launched the original 747, it too was delayed as they had to handle problems with it's revolutionary high bypass Pratt & Whitney engines. They didn't even manage to solve some of the problems by the time the inaugural flight to Paris took off!

Edited by Mohd Suhaimi Fariz

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I think it's probably more because of the radical technologies employed on the new planes that's causing the delays. When they launched the original 747, it too was delayed as they had to handle problems with it's revolutionary high bypass Pratt & Whitney engines. They didn't even manage to solve some of the problems by the time the inaugural flight to Paris took off!

 

How about 777? It was a major breakthrough as well, did it have any major delays?

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Lack of production engine for Airplane Nine drives 787 delay

The lack of availability of Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engines for Airplane Nine in the 787 programme, Boeing's third production aircraft and the first of the commercial fleet scheduled to fly, is main driver for the programme's latest delay.

 

"We need to get an engine for Airplane Nine so we can do [extended twin engine operations] ETOPS testing," says Jim Albaugh, Boeing Commercial Airplanes president and chief executive officer.

 

The shortage of Trent 1000 engines extends to subsequent aircraft, including Airplane Seven, the first 787 slated for delivery to launch customer All Nippon Airways, now pushed into the middle of the first quarter of 2011 from the fourth quarter of 2010.

 

In addition to ETOPS testing, Airplane Nine was scheduled to participate in systems functionality and reliability testing at the end of the third quarter, continuing into the fourth quarter.

 

Five of Boeing's six flight test aircraft, excluding ZA001, were set to participate in ETOPS testing during the planned 3,100h flight test campaign.

 

Neither Boeing nor Rolls-Royce are offering details on the future of the Package A engine build, though it is now confirmed that the 2 August failure occurred on a version of that engine slated to power Airplane Nine. Package A engines are set to power the first several 787s for ANA, before switching to Package B for an improvement in fuel consumption to within 1% of original specification.

 

Rolls-Royce is seeking to distance itself from the uncontained failure. "We have been informed by Boeing that the currently planned dates for Trent 1000 engine deliveries will not support their latest flight test programme requirements. We are working closely with Boeing to expedite delivery in support of their programme schedule," says the engine maker, indirectly suggesting a shift to the left of Boeing's timelines was unachievable.

 

However, Rolls-Royce emphasises "the engine availability issue is unrelated to the test bed event which occurred earlier this month".

 

What remains unclear from all parties involved is in what way the failure was related to the delay, yet by all outward appearances the failure prompted Boeing's "assessment of the availability of an engine needed for the final phases of flight test this fall".

 

Boeing's 787 programme has been beset by nearly three years of delays.

 

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/08/28/346766/lack-of-production-engine-for-airplane-nine-drives-787.html

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How about 777? It was a major breakthrough as well, did it have any major delays?

 

The 777 flew on time, but it's an improvement on existing technology. It's not as revolutionary as the 747. To give you an example, the most powerful engine when the 747 was designed was 16,000 pounds. The 747's engine has a thrust of 43,000 pounds. As for the size, it's twice as big as the biggest airliner of the day.

 

Try looking for the video 21st Century Jet - Building the 777 on Google Video. 5 series detailing everything from the start of the 777 program to it's inaugural flight. Very, very interesting.

Edited by Mohd Suhaimi Fariz

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At least now that MH has ordered the new B737-800s and A330-300s, they'll have reasonably new aircraft that will last the next 10 years. It'll be nice to see MH have a consistently new fleet across the board by 2012/2013. By then, we'll also know whether MH has ordered new generation aircraft like the B787 or A350 and we can look forward to those aircraft replacing the A330s and B777s in 10 year's time.

Edited by Josh T

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The 777 flew on time, but it's an improvement on existing technology. It's not as revolutionary as the 747. To give you an example, the most powerful engine when the 747 was designed was 16,000 pounds. The 747's engine has a thrust of 43,000 pounds. As for the size, it's twice as big as the biggest airliner of the day.

 

Try looking for the video 21st Century Jet - Building the 777 on Google Video. 5 series detailing everything from the start of the 777 program to it's inaugural flight. Very, very interesting.

 

I think I have seen that video on YouTube. I believe 777 was as revolutionary as the 787 and A380. It has the biggest landing gear required for a twin engine, the biggest aircraft powered by two engines ever and 180-minutes ETOPS requirements.

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I think I have seen that video on YouTube. I believe 777 was as revolutionary as the 787 and A380. It has the biggest landing gear required for a twin engine, the biggest aircraft powered by two engines ever and 180-minutes ETOPS requirements.

 

I saw that docu when it first came out a long time ago. What I remember is that 777 is the first one to be designed entirely using networked computers, eg., the guy drawing the wing design can see on the computer that the fuselage guy already allocated the spot where the wings should be screwed to, and the cable guy is not running cables where the screws would need to pass through. So when they put everything together for the first time they were so amazed and relieved that everything fits just right.

 

With dreamliner, there is a huge difference, i.e., entirely different companies from different parts of the world are manufacturing the different parts. These subcontracts are causing big delays...

 

With the Etops as well, I think the 777 was the first one to count testing hours as contributing towards the Etops certification. Previously, Etops certification only starts when all the flight tests are over. Thus when the 777 went into service, it's first passenger flight was transatlantic LHR-JFK. Otherwise it would have to fly a number on internal US flights before being allowed over water.

 

That's what I remember... such a long time ago since the 777 came into service.

 

I did fly on that first 777 (United Airlines N777UA) in 2006, JFK-LHR. Nice plaque on the door saying that it is the first 777 in service, but the interiors was already showing its age...

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At least now that MH has ordered the new B737-800s and A330-300s, they'll have reasonably new aircraft that will last the next 10 years. It'll be nice to see MH have a consistently new fleet across the board by 2012/2013. By then, we'll also know whether MH has ordered new generation aircraft like the B787 or A350 and we can look forward to those aircraft replacing the A330s and B777s in 10 year's time.

 

By the time MH received the last of newly ordered A333, MH’s CASK will be about 20% more expensive than competitors e.g. SQ, EK, D7, etc; MH is likely to need gomen assistance for A333 and 772 replacement in 2020 :pardon:

 

:drinks:

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Interesting comment in A.Net re CX's intention to buy used SQ aircraft:

 

I think this deal would be consistent with previous CX policy of purchasing aircrafts, and SQ is on of the most trustful operators to get second hand equipment from.

 

By the way...don't you guys find it funny with all the bloodbath going on these forums between A & B fanatics and wannabe "experts" about efficiency and economics of the 2 manufacturers products, that some, if not most of the top moneymaking airlines in the world seem to be earning their money on either second hand equipments or planes that many on these forums consider "dead" or "fuel guzzling" products that all have much more inferior counterparts

 

LH with their A346s and especially 744s and 733/735s

CX with their 744s, 773s and now these rumored used 77Es

LA with their 767s, that many consider here a dead duck

 

And someone actually replied:

 

This is because efficiency is not the whole equation, capital cost (airplanes) of an airline made up a very big protion of an airline expenses, so for a carrier like CX, buying second hand equipment at a much lower prIce than a new one can means a very big cost advantage even though maintances and fuel cost might turn out to be higher for these slightly older aircraft. So I think that is why you often find CX buying older second hand aircraft, because buying cheap second hand plane is probably the cheapest way for CX to expand! Also, just like others had mention, tax and depreiation makes a difference as well! Just my two cents!

 

So there is more than one way for an airline to make money. It does not always need to have the latest and most up to date fuel efficient airplane... :good:

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Interesting comment in A.Net re CX's intention to buy used SQ aircraft:

 

And someone actually replied:

 

So there is more than one way for an airline to make money. It does not always need to have the latest and most up to date fuel efficient airplane... :good:

 

 

From http://www.malaysianwings.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14806&st=0

As per MH, depreciation/leasing and maintenance is the top 3 and 4 of opex. As long as depreciation/leasing saved is more than expected increase in maintenance and fuel, it is financially just to purchase older aircraft. Most 767, 757 operators should have low or nominal depreciation for their older aircraft, why do they bother with replacement? Why AK replaced 733 with A320?

 

:drinks:

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I think this deal would be consistent with previous CX policy of purchasing aircrafts .....

'Betsy' immediately comes to mind !

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Delivery delays also cause loss of profits - what good is a new fuel efficient plane design if you can't have it in commercial service? More airlines are changing their B787 plans...

 

Kenya Airways threatens to ditch 787 for Airbus

 

Kenya Airways' irritation over delays to the Boeing 787 programme has evolved into a threat to cancel the aircraft it has on order.

 

The flag carrier had already said, during its review of the last financial year, which ended in March, that the hold-up to the 787 was a "major challenge" for the airline.

 

Kenya Airways ordered six 787-8s in March 2006 and, nine months later, followed this with an order for another three.

 

The first of the aircraft had originally been scheduled to arrive this year. At the time that Kenya placed its initial order, the Dreamliner was due to enter service with launch customer All Nippon Airways in mid-2008, but this has slipped by almost three years. Following the latest delay announced in August it is not now due until early 2011. The result is that most 787 customers have suffered delays of at least two years to their first delivery.

 

Kenya Airways says it is considering cancelling its 787 order and is "looking into negotiations with Airbus".

 

In its end-of-year review Kenya Airways had already disclosed that it was considering the Airbus A330 as a back-up option, alongside the extension of its Boeing 767 leases or the acquisition of newer 767s.

 

The airline says its threat to drop the 787 is "serious" and that the carrier intends to make a decision by the end of the year.

 

Boeing has suffered a series of 787 order cancellations over the past 18 months, although no customer is believed to have specifically blamed their move on the programme delays.

 

Air China has converted its order for 15 787-8s to the 787-9 stretch variant, and expects to take delivery of the new aircraft from the end of 2015. The 787-9 will be a better fit for the airline in terms of seat capacity, performance and economy, says China's flag carrier. Air China placed its 787 order in 2005 and had originally expected deliveries to start in mid-2008.

 

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/01/346868/kenya-airways-threatens-to-ditch-787-for-airbus.html

Edited by flee

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In its end-of-year review Kenya Airways had already disclosed that it was considering the Airbus A330 as a back-up option, alongside the extension of its Boeing 767 leases or the acquisition of newer 767s.

 

 

Heh, in some ways, MH is actually way ahead of the curve. They already ordered the A330 ! :rofl:

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Heh, in some ways, MH is actually way ahead of the curve. They already ordered the A330 ! :rofl:

Yup, so true

And so way ahead they skipped the 'ordering the 787' stage completely :p :rofl:

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Boeing disperses 787 test fleet

 

Boeing's 787 test fleet has fanned out from its home base in Seattle, Washington as the type pushes through certification toward its revised mid-first quarter 2011 first delivery to All Nippon Airways.

 

ZA001 recently completed runway takeoff and landing performance stability and control (S&C) evaluations at Edwards Air Force Base in southern California, as well as wet runway trials at Roswell, New Mexico. ZA001 transitioned to southern California on 16 August and recently returned to Roswell on 2 September ahead of planned rejected take off testing. Testing at Edwards Air Force Base included velocity minimum unstick (Vmu) testing that saw the aircraft's tail scrape along the runway on takeoff roll to determine the minimum flying speed of the 787 at different configurations.

 

ZA002 is currently participating in the programme's first international remote testing in Keflavik, Iceland, where the aircraft is taking advantage of the airport's perpendicular runways, all equipped with instrument landing systems and historically high winds for crosswind handling characteristics. The aircraft arrived in Iceland on 1 September and flew its first round of S&C autoflight evaluations on 3 September with crosswind speeds of 28kts to 32kts.

 

"We've been watching for the right weather conditions for some time," says Scott Fancher, 787 programme vice president and general manager. "The team was happy to see the forecast in Iceland met our needs and we deployed to Keflavik earlier this week."

 

Boeing expects to certify the 787 for takeoffs and landings of up to 25kts of crosswind.

 

ZA003 has been undergoing hot weather trials since arriving in Yuma, Arizona on 28 August, with testing in conditions in excess 38C (100F). Boeing says the aircraft is expected to remain on remote testing for roughly seven more days.

 

ZA004 has spent nearly its entire time in the flight test programme based out of Southern California Logistics Airport in Victorville, California. Since 7 July, the aircraft has been undergoing flight loads survey, comparing loads observed on the aircraft to those modelled during the aircraft's design while measuring "external pressure distributions throughout the flight envelope", says Boeing.

 

ZA004 is now expected to transition to Glasgow, Montana, says Boeing, for an unspecified next round of testing. Wokal Field in Glasgow traditionally has been the airframer's preferred site to host community noise evaluations to map the acoustic profile of its new aircraft.

 

ZA005, the first of two GEnx-1B powered 787s, has remained at Boeing Field for simulated ice shapes handling and stall characteristics mimicking worse-case-scenario ice build up on the leading edges of the aircraft's wings, horizontal and vertical stabilisers.

 

ZA006, Boeing's sixth 787 test aircraft has yet to fly, though was fuelled for the first time on 3 September at the company's Everett, Washington factory in preparation for first auxiliary power unit and engine runs prior to its first flight, which is expected late this month.

 

Boeing plans to add two more 787s to the flight test campaign, Airplanes Eight and Nine, both in the ANA production configurations. Airplane Eight will be used for ground testing, while Airplane Nine will take part in extended twin-engine operation testing and systems functionality and reliability evaluations.

 

Five 787 test aircraft have completed more than 1,650h of flight testing covering more than 540 flights. Boeing expects it will accumulate 3,100h of flight testing spread across its General Electric GEnx-1B and Rolls-Royce Trent 1000-powered 787s.

 

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/03/346997/boeing-disperses-787-test-fleet.html

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Love those wings (flex)...

 

Seems to handle the x-winds quite well !

 

Different way of tail strobe-lights on the 787 :pardon: (2 on each side i.s.o. 1 at the end)

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I wonder what kind of compensation SQ managed to extract out of Boeing for the B787 delays... Anyway, that is way OT and perhaps we can start another thread for that!

 

Yes, good idea and here it is :)

Must say the issue of compensation to the customers is not as widely reported as compared to the A380 case

No doubt fact that neither of our local carriers has ordered the B787 has played a part

Or that the Boeing PR department is that much more effective than Airbus' ?

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ANA converts 15 787-8s to -9s

 

Boeing 787 launch operator All Nippon Airways (ANA) will convert 15 of its 55 787-8s order to larger -9 aircraft, joining a growing list of customers to make the switch.

 

The -9s will "meet the increasing need for 400 seat-capacity aircraft for domestic routes, and will further improve the flexibility of our fleet and network planning", says ANA, which has said it plans to have domestic and long-haul configurations for its 787-8s,

 

These 400-seat 787-9s will complement, and likely replace, the 418-seat 777-200s that ANA operates today on short-haul routes.

 

In January, ANA converted 28 787-3s, intended for short-haul high-cycle high-capacity domestic operations, to 787-8s. The move erased the remaining backlog for the model, virtually eliminating any chance the variant will ever be built.

 

ANA joins a growing list of 787 customers converting to the stretch 787-9, which is designed to seat 280 passengers in a three-class configuration. The 787-9 is 6.1m longer than the -8 and has a design range of 15,000km (8,135nm).

 

Air China recently converted 15 of its 787-8s to -9s, while Vietnam Airlines converted 16.

 

Excluding today's conversion by ANA, Boeing holds orders for 847 787s, split between 205 787-9s and 642 -8s. That breakdown is expected to further shift towards the -9 as its capabilities become clearer.

 

ANA did not specify a timeline for delivery of the 787-9s, which are slated to enter service with Air New Zealand at the end of 2013.

 

The Japanese carrier, which has yet to announce its first destination with the 787, is currently slated to receive its first 787-8 in February 2011 after nearly three years of delays.

 

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/30/347965/ana-converts-15-787-8s-to-9s.html

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Boeing 787 makes emergency landing on test flight

 

DALLAS (AP) - A Boeing 787 jetliner made an emergency landing after smoke was detected in the main cabin during a test flight over Texas.

 

A Boeing spokeswoman said Tuesday that the plane landed safely and the crew was evacuated after landing in Laredo.

 

Emergency personnel were called. Boeing said it was still gathering information about the incident.

 

Boeing has said it will deliver the first production models of the 787 to airlines next year. Development of the aircraft is running about three years behind schedule after a series of delays.

 

The fuselage of the 787 is made of composite material designed to produce a lighter, more fuel-efficient plane.

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Fire on 787 test aircraft forces evacuation

 

A fire broke out on Boeing's second 787 flight test aircraft today, prompting an emergency landing and evacuation of the test personnel on board.

 

ZA002 was en route from Yuma, Arizona to Harlingen, Texas, for an extended test of the aircraft's nitrogen generation system, when smoke was seen in the main cabin. It had earlier shifted its destination in-flight to Laredo, Texas where better weather was observed.

 

The aircraft "continued its approach and landed safely" in Laredo where its evacuation slides were deployed, says Boeing. About 30 test personnel on board evacuated the aircraft safely, it adds. ZA002 landed at 14:54hr, says the FAA.

 

A source familiar with the incident says the fire had broken out in the aft electronics equipment bay, causing the flight deck primary flight displays and auto throttle to fail.

 

The aircraft's ram turbine was deployed while landing, which was conducted in visual flight rules conditions, adds the source.

 

Boeing says it is "continuing to collect data" on the source of the fire. Hamilton Sundstrand, which supplies the 787's electrical system, is in touch with Boeing and is participating in the investigation.

 

Boeing has cancelled all its planned 787 flight test activities for Wednesday, say programme sources, shifting the fleet to ground testing.

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Boeing 787 Test Flight Lands With Cabin Smoke

 

November 10, 2010

 

A Boeing 787 test flight made an emergency landing on Tuesday in Texas with smoke in the cabin, the first incident of its kind, putting additional scrutiny on the already delayed model.

 

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Boeing said the 787 was on final approach to Laredo airport on a routine mid-afternoon flight from Yuma, Arizona, when the crew reported smoke.

 

The jet landed safely and all 42 people aboard exited via emergency chutes. Emergency services responded and one person sustained a minor injury during the evacuation, Boeing said.

 

The plane -- marked ZA002 -- is one of six 787 test aircraft.

 

It is unclear what caused the smoke, Boeing said. The FAA said it would look into the matter.

 

"We are continuing to gather data regarding this event," Boeing spokeswoman Loretta Gunter said.

 

Smoke can be caused by a variety of factors, including wiring, lighting, other electronics or aircraft systems.

 

The wide-body aircraft is loaded with technical gear designed to monitor performance during flight tests.

 

The manufacturer also said it had no reason to suspect that the aircraft's engines manufactured by Rolls-Royce had anything to do with the incident.

 

Rolls is trying to contain safety questions and allay investor concern about the failure of a different Trent-series engine on a Qantas Airbus A380 last week. The plane, carrying 459 passengers and crew, landed safely in Singapore, and Qantas grounded its four-engine superjumbo fleet for checks.

 

Boeing is also testing two 787s equipped with engines made by General Electric.

 

The light-weight, carbon-composite aircraft is nearly three years behind schedule after repeated delays due to engineering snags and problems with the supply chain. Boeing is using suppliers from around the world.

 

There has been recent speculation throughout the industry that the aircraft could experience another delay.

 

Boeing has said within the past week that the programme is on schedule for the first delivery in the first quarter of 2011. Boeing has orders for 847 Dreamliners, an unprecedented number for a plane still in development.

 

The company said last month that the plane handles well and it was "extremely satisfied" with the 787 during testing.

 

(Reuters)

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787 schedule to slip after fire prompts hardware, software changes - By Jon Ostrower

 

First delivery of the 787 will be delayed again to make software and minor hardware changes to the electrical system, but the length of the latest setback will be decided within a "few weeks", Boeing says.

 

The airframer needs to implement changes to the Hamilton Sundstrand-supplied software that manages and protects power distribution on the aircraft, as well as a minor hardware change to the P100 distribution panel to prevent foreign object debris (FOD) ingestion.

 

"We have successfully simulated key aspects of the on-board event in our laboratory and are moving forward with developing design fixes," says 787 vice president and general manager Scott Fancher

 

Boeing says foreign debris "most likely" caused the 9 November fire aboard ZA002 that halted 787 certification operations.

 

The company adds that "engineers have determined the fault began as either a short circuit or an electrical arc in the P100 power distribution panel", which sits against the left wall of the 787's aft electronic equipment bay and manages power generated by the aircraft's left engine.

 

Randy Tinseth, Boeing vice president of marketing, says: "Whatever this foreign debris was, it wasn't something big - such as a tool - it was probably something small. We're taking the right steps to ensure the power distribution panels are better protected against foreign debris."

 

As for the six grounded flight test aircraft, Boeing did not say whether or not the design changes would require implementation before resuming certification activities, saying only: "Boeing is developing a plan to enable a return to 787 flight test activities and will present it to the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) as soon as it is complete."

 

The company says it is now "assessing the time required to complete the design changes and software updates that are being developed".

 

The first 787 is currently slated for handover to Japan's All Nippon Airways in the middle of the first quarter 2011.

 

Link to the news: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/11/25/350176/787-schedule-to-slip-after-fire-prompts-hardware-software.html

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...and I'm wondering if 787 will ever be delivered to ANA.

I'm glad MH didn't put an order, but turned into new A330s. Otherwise, it will jeopardise MH fleet expansion plan in a major way.

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Yes, some airlines operate more conservative procurement policies and won't buy paper aeroplanes. They prefer to see the actual operational numbers before they commit any orders.

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