MAB to Lease 6 Ex-Air Berlin Airbus A330-200 Aircraft from February 2018

[jahur 0]

If they are old frames very sure the range is somewhat similar to mas previous old 5 units a330-200 that usually max out to only 11.5hours endurance. Top on with the high density seating of 287 while other long haul carriers have 230-250seats only it is very likely they have range restriction maybe at the same level as mas current a330-300 in terms of endurance. If mab intends to deploy them to any sector above 10hours they have trim down 40 plus economy class seats.

Edited September 28, 2017 by jahur

[Vicknesh PS 0]

If they were to replace our 738s...why the A332 and not the A333? Unless ofcourse A332s are cheaper to obtain. The A332 has a lower seat count but a better range so one guess is of course AKL. The other wild guess is we are trying to re-enter some European markets next year.

[Chris Tan 0]

If they are old frames very sure the range is somewhat similar to mas previous old 5 units a330-200 that usually max out to only 11.5hours endurance. Top on with the high density seating of 287 while other long haul carriers have 230-250seats only it is very likely they have range restriction maybe at the same level as mas current a330-300 in terms of endurance. If mab intends to deploy them to any sector above 10hours they have trim down 40 plus economy class seats.

But these 332s are meant for popular regional flights currently served by the 738, no? Why would payload/range be a concern?

[flee 5]

yes these 6 A332s from Air Berlin are fairly old from 12 years to 18 years old with an avergae age of 15.2 years as seen from AB fleet details. That means most of these planes are older than MAB current A333s. This would also translate to more maintenance issues and likely some unscheduled maintenance that will affect MAB fleet.

Air Berlin has seven A332's - the oldest D-ABXA (MSN 288) was first delivered to Swissair on 20 July 1999. The youngest, D-ABXG (MSN 802) was first delivered to Eurofly on 14 Dec 2006.

 

With a 6 year lease, these will almost certainly be the last A330 CEOs to leave the fleet - by then the replacements would have come in for the current A330 CEOs.

[Craig 0]

Can we all stop dreaming speculating whether MH will return to Europe/LAX/JNB or sub 333 to AKL etc. with this new (greater range aircraft) lease. Everything on MH's press release said it will replace 738 on regional flights and MH have mentioned for a long time that they need to lease 4-6 A330s to cover regional routes.

 

MH have already said that DPS/BOM/DEL/PER are prime candidate cities for the leased 332s. Previously mentioned cities include second daily to PVG/HKG plus CAN/TPE so expect it to see it on those routes as well. MH already canceled the planned frequency increase to TPE and will remain 7 weekly from KUL - so that's another candidate city to see those 332s.

 

The events of the recent past has taught me never to assume anything about MAB.

 

B789 MoU did not make much sense as it was such a small order and the B789's range is not needed for regional routes. Ex-AB A332s make a lot of sense because they had PW engines but don't make so much sense because they have too much range for regional use and it has lower pax capacity than the A333s that MAB already flies.

 

We don't know what is in the minds of the MAB management or whether there is some invisible hand pushing them. MAB did not say whether they will tweak the cabin configuration or not. So I assume that anything can happen to adapt these second hand aircraft for MABs use.

The LOI for the 789s is nothing but a photo op. Nothing has been finalized. The PM even said MH will buy another 25 jets which created so much confusion that MAB had to issue a statement clarifying their firm orders and others are just well, rubbish ( I don't think I have seen an airline issue a statement to clarify their orders tbh). And issued another clarification on the order today.

 

And today, you have PB saying that MH will need to buy 35 wide-body jets by next year.

 

As far as range goes - they take what they can get at the right price. TK is using some their 332s for flights below 4 hours. This came at the right price with the right engines. Win-win in my opinion.

 

And as far as capacity goes, the difference between MH's 333 and AB's 332 is plus minus 10 seats or so - not mind boggling.

 

Current AB capacity is 290 - MH's planned 332 capacity is 287 with the same amount of J seats. Like jahur said, just slight reconfiguration of the Y cabin.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Craig

[jahur 0]

But these 332s are meant for popular regional flights currently served by the 738, no? Why would payload/range be a concern?

Because some people over this forum say they would be better off on longer sectors when cabin configuration already says otherwise. Edited September 28, 2017 by jahur

[Craig 0]

Because people over this forum say they would be better off on longer sectors when cabin configuration already says otherwise.

This is what happens when people just go into la-la land when everything they need to know is in the press release (or maybe they didn't read the news release). Edited September 28, 2017 by Craig

[BC Tam 2]

Can we all stop dreaming speculating whether MH will return to Europe/LAX/JNB or sub 333 to AKL etc. with this new (greater range aircraft) lease. Everything on MH's press release said it will replace 738 on regional flights and MH have mentioned for a long time that they need to lease 4-6 A330s to cover regional routes.

Maybe, just maybe, latest leak from la-la land suggest the replaced 738s will then be freed up for "return to Europe/LAX/JNB"

MAB - Malaysia Apa-apa Boleh

[nrazmoor 0]

yes these 6 A332s from Air Berlin are fairly old from 12 years to 18 years old with an avergae age of 15.2 years as seen from AB fleet details. That means most of these planes are older than MAB current A333s. This would also translate to more maintenance issues and likely some unscheduled maintenance that will affect MAB fleet.

 

From https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/malaysia-airlines-signs-loi-with-aercap-for-six-a33-441559/

 

"Flight Fleets Analyzer indicates that AerCap manages 16 A330-200 aircraft powered by PW4000 engines. All six are in storage, with the operator listed as Air Berlin. The average age of these six jets is 11.3 years, with the ages ranging from 7.5 to 15.7 years."

[flee 5]

Because some people over this forum say they would be better off on longer sectors when cabin configuration already says otherwise.

IIRC, some MWingers have mentioned that it is OK for MAB to operate multiple aircraft types so that yields can be optimised for each market. As such, it is important to deploy the right aircraft for the purpose.

 

Many airlines (e.g. SQ, CX, etc.) do abuse their aircraft to maximise utilisation or capacity. Perhaps, MAB is taking a leaf out of their books and will abuse the A332 for the six years it will operate the aircraft.

MH have already said that DPS/BOM/DEL/PER are prime candidate cities for the leased 332s. Previously mentioned cities include second daily to PVG/HKG plus CAN/TPE so expect it to see it on those routes as well. MH already canceled the planned frequency increase to TPE and will remain 7 weekly from KUL - so that's another candidate city to see those 332s.

 

The LOI for the 789s is nothing but a photo op. Nothing has been finalized. The PM even said MH will buy another 25 jets which created so much confusion that MAB had to issue a statement clarifying their firm orders and others are just well, rubbish ( I don't think I have seen an airline issue a statement to clarify their orders tbh). And issued another clarification on the order today.

The AerCap lease is also a LoI - what should we make out of this second LoI in as many weeks?

 

Since the aircraft involved are pretty old and the lease rates for A332s are tanking, we can probably assume that PB is pretty pleased that he has saved a fortune in leasing costs. Perhaps the A332 and B738 lease rates are pretty close - so they get extra capacity for almost little or no additional lease costs. That may be why they can easily use them to operate ex-B738 routes.

[BC Tam 2]

Many airlines (e.g. SQ, CX, etc.) do abuse their aircraft to maximise utilisation or capacity. Perhaps, MAB is taking a leaf out of their books and will abuse the A332 for the six years it will operate the aircraft.

Sounds like some nightmare car rental customers

[Mr.Bandit 0]

The likely candidates to be taken are D-ABXC, D-ABXD, D-ALPI, D-ALPJ, D-ABXE and D-ABXF. Since they operated on older PW4168 (have slightly reduce thrust ratings which is better for regional use) rather than MH A333 (PW4170), MAB seeks for support agreement with Pratt. And yes, the seat in Y class will reconfigure to 32 inch seat pitch, usually takes 2-4 days to finish per aircraft.

[leon t 0]

till fairly old birds and by the time MAB finishes with the lease, some of these will be 20 years old.

[Chris Tan 0]

There's no pleasing some people.

 

Older leased 738s: no BSI, worse than LCC

New-ish 738s: too small for regional flights

332s for replacing 738s: too old

Brand new widebodies: too expensive/ambitious

[Mushrif A 3]

Nobody really cares if the airframe is old as long as it is well-maintained, and more importantly, the interior is new or new-ish. CX/KA are/ were flying some old frames too but with new seats.

 

To the vast majority of folks who would actually be paying and flying on such aircraft, a new-looking, smart, IFE-equipped interior is appreciated.

 

And back to reality, nobody checks the age of the aircraft operating a particular route before deciding to purchase, or not, tickets with the airline-operator.

[Johan Z 0]

There's no pleasing some people.

 

Older leased 738s: no BSI, worse than LCC

New-ish 738s: too small for regional flights

332s for replacing 738s: too old

Brand new widebodies: too expensive/ambitious

MH should stick to 737 and A330 and don't expand.LOL

[Amirul Mazlan 0]

These 330s are good deal for money that they dont have. At least make better business decision instead of those puny orders of 787. Falling rates, instand availability and commonality makes it a no brainer. Good for MH and PB for managing to hold on and secure these aircrafts. Lets see how jinx Najib is when it comes to new aircraft orders. FlyMojo with their CS was nothing more than hot air, nada. Nothing happens. Highly likely with recent 787 LOI. But having said this ill be more than happy to be proven wrong in 2019.

[leon t 0]

as a very regular flier, I do take a look at the age of the aircraft and the operator of the aircrafts and or see the average age of the fleet. However with somewhat newer frames ie say of less than 10 years, the maintenance costs will also not be higher as older planes do have more maintenance schedules to provide for and even unscheduled ones. Hence getting the lowest or "cheapest" lease is not only the criteria.

[BC Tam 2]

In my opinion, this newer frames (lesser maintenance) vs older frames (more problems) assumption appear to have blurred considerably nowadays

Much to cost of those operators who prided in "first to operate" status on the Dugongs and Dreamliners for example, with their cutting edge technologies onboard when they first entered commercial service

And if everything read here in this forum being true, there are operators deferring deliveries of their already ordered new whizz-bangs just to avoid pioneer status and associated risk of 'introductory hiccups'

But yes, as a long time member of forum has always emphasized - "Cheap Not Good, Good Not Cheap...."

[jahur 0]

as a very regular flier, I do take a look at the age of the aircraft and the operator of the aircrafts and or see the average age of the fleet. However with somewhat newer frames ie say of less than 10 years, the maintenance costs will also not be higher as older planes do have more maintenance schedules to provide for and even unscheduled ones. Hence getting the lowest or "cheapest" lease is not only the criteria.

Do note cheaper aircraft lease rates may be more beneficial and sometimes cheaper even with added maintenance cost over new demanding slot constricted planes. Its in the mix bag of cost negotiations and revenue management. You get a brand new or used rr powered a330 that actually requires more maintenance cycle and deck check on the engine as the trent 700 is more powerful for long range assignments with higher output and you're going to use them to upgauge overcrowded till overbooked b737-800 sectors for 6years? Dont think thats beneficial when the a339neo+789 options for post 2019 is nearing. But if you can get the rr powered a330 by negotiating more and setting agreement tabs and adjusting it doesnt hurt which i believe did not happen in this case. Edited September 29, 2017 by jahur

[fendy 2]

as a very regular flier, I do take a look at the age of the aircraft and the operator of the aircrafts and or see the average age of the fleet. However with somewhat newer frames ie say of less than 10 years, the maintenance costs will also not be higher as older planes do have more maintenance schedules to provide for and even unscheduled ones. Hence getting the lowest or "cheapest" lease is not only the criteria.

 

are you the kind of person that lines up every year the iphone hits stores? you must always be up to date and have the latest, trendiest things?

 

comeon... its like rejecting an uber ride because the car is too old. as long as the hard and soft product are competitive, honestly i don't see any difference between a 10 year old plane and a brand new plane.

Edited September 29, 2017 by fendy

[leon t 0]

for those who are involved with the aerospace industry or whi are aircraft enthusiasts would know the difference between a newer and much older aircrafts and even some of issues related to it. However for the majority of travellers, they would not even know the difference between A333 or B787 or a B777. But to each his own, some like to fly in newer planes or new generation of aircrafts, whilst there are some who like and seek out older aircrafts before they are withdrawn from service.

[KK Lee 5]

Beside novelty value, for reasons airline order latest airplane and engine. If there isn't significant advantages, Boeing or Airbus would not have spent so much in R&D and introduce next generation aircraft and engine.

 

MAB lease old A332 is like someone preferred used car than brand new.

[BC Tam 2]

MAB lease old A332 is like someone preferred used car than brand new.

When you're down and out struggling for mere survival dependant upon trickle of cash flow from some higher being yet still expected to keep to some KPIs, you'll make do with used goods in some form or another ........

(yeah, like anyone will buy that)

[KK Lee 5]

Nobody really cares if the airframe is old as long as it is well-maintained, and more importantly, the interior is new or new-ish. CX/KA are/ were flying some old frames too but with new seats.

 

To the vast majority of folks who would actually be paying and flying on such aircraft, a new-looking, smart, IFE-equipped interior is appreciated.

 

And back to reality, nobody checks the age of the aircraft operating a particular route before deciding to purchase, or not, tickets with the airline-operator.

 

These 330s are good deal for money that they dont have. At least make better business decision instead of those puny orders of 787. Falling rates, instand availability and commonality makes it a no brainer. Good for MH and PB for managing to hold on and secure these aircrafts. Lets see how jinx Najib is when it comes to new aircraft orders. FlyMojo with their CS was nothing more than hot air, nada. Nothing happens. Highly likely with recent 787 LOI. But having said this ill be more than happy to be proven wrong in 2019.

 

For the same reasons, MAB should cancel 737 max 8 and lease older 738.

Edited September 29, 2017 by KK Lee