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5 hours ago, S V Choong said:

Exactly, western news aren't as balance or free of propaganda as many think they are. 

Chinese media is guided by the CCPPD.... imagine if they are not, the social order will be hard to maintain.  The western media and govt would frankly like to cripple the CCP through years of demonising the CCP.  So there goes the political agenda.

For me personally, facts that is free from propaganda and political agenda is extremely important to me.

Western media is at least more independent than state-sponsored media. Seattle Times broke a few stories about the 737 MAX (biggest employer in their own backyard and US' largest exporter), left-leaning media constantly dissing #45, WaPo who broke the Watergate scandal etc. Will CGTN or Global Times etc. expose China's or CCP"s wrongdoing (if any)?


Most media are biased against other countries (if you think they are *only* out to cripple the CCP, you are wrong). You can compare how BBC/Guardian and say CNN/MSNBC reported Harry Dunn's case or social issues in the US. Or how Straits Times and The Star reported on MY/SG maritime boundary issues.

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47 minutes ago, S V Choong said:

The assumption is that such journalist will be killed for reporting different view point... i think that's a cold war propaganda.  I will believe it when I see it.

I am waiting for Jamal Khashoggi's alternate narrative :)

Edited by Craig

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On 1/29/2020 at 1:04 AM, Craig said:

I am waiting for Jamal Khashoggi's alternate narrative :)

It will be hard, since he is pro-western... I wouldn't hold my breath.

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On 1/29/2020 at 12:58 AM, Craig said:

Western media is at least more independent than state-sponsored media. Seattle Times broke a few stories about the 737 MAX (biggest employer in their own backyard and US' largest exporter), left-leaning media constantly dissing #45, WaPo who broke the Watergate scandal etc. Will CGTN or Global Times etc. expose China's or CCP"s wrongdoing (if any)?


Most media are biased against other countries (if you think they are *only* out to cripple the CCP, you are wrong). You can compare how BBC/Guardian and say CNN/MSNBC reported Harry Dunn's case or social issues in the US. Or how Straits Times and The Star reported on MY/SG maritime boundary issues.

It is true that CGTN and the likes will not bad mouthed the CCP.  This is for a reason.  We can see how bad it gets in Hong Kong nowadays where people had been brainwashed enough to take it out to the streets thinking they are doing the right thing by destroying everything in the street in order to hi-jack the government.  Hong Kong is still one of the world's society which enjoyed the most freedom with freedom of press and etc.  However that has been used as a weapon against none other than the Hong Kongers themselves.    The freedom of press and speech has been abused.  I lived in Hong Kong and saw everything that happened over 7 months.  Is Freedom of speech and press really good?  I believe the freedom will be surpress once it threatens the power or government, even in Western countries.  Look at the way they report police brutality was reported in Hong Kong (with near zero casualty) versus France and Chile (where protestors were shot).  You won't see much negativity in France and Chile.

I disagree with you regarding China.  Look at the news these days, is there anything positive about China?  The positive news are very little and often appeared at the corner.  I am not the only one who feels it.  There is a bunch of people behind the scene that is engineering the way we think and the way we preceive things.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/auch-n28.html

The west keep bad mouthing China for the lack of press freedom.  Take a look at the Malaysian and Singaporean governments.  Do you think you are allowed to post anything negative about the government?  There is a sedition act that deal with this sort of thing.  So why did we only see China takes the beating but Malaysia and Singapore got away with it lightly?  

People vote for the government of the day and it is true in China.  If the Communist government failed to deliver their service to the people who put them in power.  I am sure the Chinese would remove them at all cost.  Foreigners have been too involved in discrediting the CCP and it really has nothing to do with them regardless how bad it is - why speak on behalf of the Chinese people?  What qualifies them?

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SV choong.... are you for real? How many times have the government of China changed hands since 1949? Do you think the people there have a choice to vote for? 
 

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On 1/31/2020 at 10:14 PM, S V Choong said:

It is true that CGTN and the likes will not bad mouthed the CCP.  This is for a reason.  We can see how bad it gets in Hong Kong nowadays where people had been brainwashed enough to take it out to the streets thinking they are doing the right thing by destroying everything in the street in order to hi-jack the government.  Hong Kong is still one of the world's society which enjoyed the most freedom with freedom of press and etc.  However that has been used as a weapon against none other than the Hong Kongers themselves.    The freedom of press and speech has been abused.  I lived in Hong Kong and saw everything that happened over 7 months.  Is Freedom of speech and press really good?  I believe the freedom will be surpress once it threatens the power or government, even in Western countries.  Look at the way they report police brutality was reported in Hong Kong (with near zero casualty) versus France and Chile (where protestors were shot).  You won't see much negativity in France and Chile.

I disagree with you regarding China.  Look at the news these days, is there anything positive about China?  The positive news are very little and often appeared at the corner.  I am not the only one who feels it.  There is a bunch of people behind the scene that is engineering the way we think and the way we preceive things.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/auch-n28.html

The west keep bad mouthing China for the lack of press freedom.  Take a look at the Malaysian and Singaporean governments.  Do you think you are allowed to post anything negative about the government?  There is a sedition act that deal with this sort of thing.  So why did we only see China takes the beating but Malaysia and Singapore got away with it lightly?  

People vote for the government of the day and it is true in China.  If the Communist government failed to deliver their service to the people who put them in power.  I am sure the Chinese would remove them at all cost.  Foreigners have been too involved in discrediting the CCP and it really has nothing to do with them regardless how bad it is - why speak on behalf of the Chinese people?  What qualifies them?

No news is good news. Only authoritarian regimes direct and publish self glorification news.

If the authority didn't suppress doctors concern on initial outbreak of Wuhan virus, believe this virus is easier to content.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/02/01/early-missteps-state-secrecy-china-likely-allowed-coronavirus-spread-farther-faster/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/time-for-a-reality-check-america-the-flu-is-a-much-bigger-threat-than-coronavirus-for-now/2020/01/31/46a15166-4444-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html

 

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23 hours ago, Izanee said:

SV choong.... are you for real? How many times have the government of China changed hands since 1949? Do you think the people there have a choice to vote for? 
 

How many times have the government of Malaysia changed hands since 1957?  Pretty much none!   Changing of PM and party doesn't mean change in government - we get the same old guy back in the office after the change of government.  How many times have the government of Singapore changed hands since 1965?  None!  How many times have the government of China changed hands since 1949, none!  But there has been several leaders.  You see where the pattern is?  Already there is a deep seated pre-assumption that things have not changed.  I suggest further reading into the Chinese government.   How did the Communist succeed in China?  If not for the blessing of people who put them in power, do you think they can remain in power?  The Republic of China (KMT) government was defeated and fled to Taiwan simply because they did not win the support of Chinese people during 1940s.

Of the 62 years since independence, what kind of democracy and governance has Malaysian given us?  Think about this!  Is it as successful as China?  We should give democracy the benefit of doubt, instead of accepting it just because "the West said so".

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-51281722

Edited by S V Choong

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3 hours ago, KK Lee said:

Those are western media trying to lay blame and discredit the Chinese government as much as they can.  Who would have thought it would become an epidemic/ pandemic?  Lets compare the Australian bush fire.  It was caused by early missteps and ignorance which allowed the bush fire spread farther and faster.  It is still burning now.  No blame as yet (not much anyway).  It is easy to criticize, but had the coronavirus outbreak happened in the US or any other countries, I would not have much confidence in the way others have handled it.  The US on the other hand had not even managed to save their citizen from the H1N1 virus which caused 8200 life in 2019.

Would you think the following is violating freedom of speech?   (Malaysia arrested five people who spread fake news about Corovirus).  I actually think it is a good thing.  I think it might be okay for Malaysia and Singapore to arrest such people, but defintely not China - for "China" they people will assume these people are sentenced with death penalty without any proof...  I am just pointing out the generalisation and the negativity associated with China. Others can do it, but just not China, it seems. :)

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3048132/malaysia-arrests-five-spreading-fake-news-about

Edited by S V Choong

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4 hours ago, S V Choong said:

Those are western media trying to lay blame and discredit the Chinese government as much as they can.  Who would have thought it would become an epidemic/ pandemic?  Lets compare the Australian bush fire.  It was caused by early missteps and ignorance which allowed the bush fire spread farther and faster.  It is still burning now.  No blame as yet (not much anyway).  It is easy to criticize, but had the coronavirus outbreak happened in the US or any other countries, I would not have much confidence in the way others have handled it.  The US on the other hand had not even managed to save their citizen from the H1N1 virus which caused 8200 life in 2019.

Would you think the following is violating freedom of speech?   (Malaysia arrested five people who spread fake news about Corovirus).  I actually think it is a good thing.  I think it might be okay for Malaysia and Singapore to arrest such people, but defintely not China - for "China" they people will assume these people are sentenced with death penalty without any proof...  I am just pointing out the generalisation and the negativity associated with China. Others can do it, but just not China, it seems. :)

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3048132/malaysia-arrests-five-spreading-fake-news-about

There is a difference between fake news and containment of infectious disease. If Wudan CDC was allowed to discharge its duty zealously and report impartially, the spread of this coronavirus could be limited.

Just in case you don't realize, POTUS Donald Trump not only dislikes the main stream media but despise them.

Flu virus evolve constantly, every year many thousands people died from flu worldwide, not limited to the U.S alone.

Edited by KK Lee

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19 hours ago, S V Choong said:

Those are western media trying to lay blame and discredit the Chinese government as much as they can.  Who would have thought it would become an epidemic/ pandemic?  Lets compare the Australian bush fire.  It was caused by early missteps and ignorance which allowed the bush fire spread farther and faster.  It is still burning now.  No blame as yet (not much anyway).  It is easy to criticize, but had the coronavirus outbreak happened in the US or any other countries, I would not have much confidence in the way others have handled it.  The US on the other hand had not even managed to save their citizen from the H1N1 virus which caused 8200 life in 2019.

Would you think the following is violating freedom of speech?   (Malaysia arrested five people who spread fake news about Corovirus).  I actually think it is a good thing.  I think it might be okay for Malaysia and Singapore to arrest such people, but defintely not China - for "China" they people will assume these people are sentenced with death penalty without any proof...  I am just pointing out the generalisation and the negativity associated with China. Others can do it, but just not China, it seems. :)

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3048132/malaysia-arrests-five-spreading-fake-news-about

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/world/asia/china-coronavirus-wuhan.html?emc=edit_na_20200202&ref=cta&nl=breaking-news&campaign_id=60&instance_id=0&segment_id=20924&user_id=98bf1b4c7f7096e72e737067c1df816f&regi_id=74109930

If this could occur with national resources focusing on one city, couldn't imagine when similar infection occur in other cities.

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On 1/31/2020 at 10:14 PM, S V Choong said:

I believe the freedom will be surpress once it threatens the power or government, even in Western countries.  Look at the way they report police brutality was reported in Hong Kong (with near zero casualty) versus France and Chile (where protestors were shot).  You won't see much negativity in France and Chile.

Have you read about IDK, Abu Ghraib and how European countries disagreed with US? Death penalty in the US? To be fair, they also reported on HK protesters setting fire on someone disagreeing with them along with other news (vandalism, throwing things on the rail tracks etc.).

I disagree with you regarding China.  Look at the news these days, is there anything positive about China?  The positive news are very little and often appeared at the corner.  I am not the only one who feels it.  There is a bunch of people behind the scene that is engineering the way we think and the way we preceive things.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/11/28/auch-n28.html

They reported about the new hospital that Wuhan is building to treat 2,000+ patients and made a comment that's a feat that's almost impossible in any western country (getting the Environmental Impact Report will probably take a few months/years). Do you see any media reporting any job well done for other countries? 

People vote for the government of the day and it is true in China.  If the Communist government failed to deliver their service to the people who put them in power.  I am sure the Chinese would remove them at all cost.  Foreigners have been too involved in discrediting the CCP and it really has nothing to do with them regardless how bad it is - why speak on behalf of the Chinese people?  What qualifies them?

I am not familiar with how the Chinese government elect their officials, but how exactly do an ordinary Chinese citizen remove the CCP or at least people in power? 

Foreigners have been too involved in discrediting the CCP and it really has nothing to do with them regardless how bad it is - why speak on behalf of the Chinese people?  What qualifies them?

Should non-citizens not care about Trump, Johnson, Morrison, Duterte, Bolsonaro  etc.? Should BBC not report about US or CNN/Fox not report about Johnson? 

20 hours ago, S V Choong said:

Foreigners have been too involved in discrediting the CCP and it really has nothing to do with them regardless how bad it is - why speak on behalf of the Chinese people?  What qualifies them?

wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==

I am sure Aussies and Western media are praising Morrison for taking a holiday in Hawaii whilst the country is in its worst fire disaster :)

Would you think the following is violating freedom of speech?   (Malaysia arrested five people who spread fake news about Corovirus).  I actually think it is a good thing.  I think it might be okay for Malaysia and Singapore to arrest such people, but defintely not China - for "China" they people will assume these people are sentenced with death penalty without any proof...  I am just pointing out the generalisation and the negativity associated with China. Others can do it, but just not China, it seems. :)

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3048132/malaysia-arrests-five-spreading-fake-news-about

There's freedom of speech but you can't cause mass panic (in the US, the example always given is "shouting fire in a crowded cinema"). MY and SG isn't exactly the beacon for freedom of speech, especially SG. Did the Western media criticize SG/MY for jailing political dissidents? You bet. But do I think MY has better freedom of speech than say 3 years ago? Absolutely.

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On 2/2/2020 at 7:01 AM, S V Choong said:

How many times have the government of Malaysia changed hands since 1957?  Pretty much none!   Changing of PM and party doesn't mean change in government - we get the same old guy back in the office after the change of government.  How many times have the government of Singapore changed hands since 1965?  None!  How many times have the government of China changed hands since 1949, none!  But there has been several leaders.  You see where the pattern is?  Already there is a deep seated pre-assumption that things have not changed.  I suggest further reading into the Chinese government.   How did the Communist succeed in China?  If not for the blessing of people who put them in power, do you think they can remain in power?  The Republic of China (KMT) government was defeated and fled to Taiwan simply because they did not win the support of Chinese people during 1940s.

Of the 62 years since independence, what kind of democracy and governance has Malaysian given us?  Think about this!  Is it as successful as China?  We should give democracy the benefit of doubt, instead of accepting it just because "the West said so".

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-51281722

SV Choong... we managed to change our government finally in 2018. We are a young country - give us a bit of time. 
 

what makes you so sure that the People are able to influence who becomes president in China? Yes, KMT lost the civil war and ran off to 🇹🇼 in 1949, but what other party is there in China? 
 

 

 

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On 2/4/2020 at 8:02 AM, Izanee said:

SV Choong... we managed to change our government finally in 2018. We are a young country - give us a bit of time. 

what makes you so sure that the People are able to influence who becomes president in China? Yes, KMT lost the civil war and ran off to 🇹🇼 in 1949, but what other party is there in China? 

Young country - 63 years old a young country?  China is also a young country, it is founded in 1949.  Singapore is also a young country which is founded in 1965.  The politics in Malaysia has not improved to say the least as long as it is of the same guy and with voters having the same mentality.  Keep staying young and innocent and keep fighting for the right government from hopeful to hopeless.  Keep voting the crooks into the government.   The competition amongst the world will not wait for you.

So what makes you think democracy is the best form of govt?  I think you misunderstood what I am saying.  If the people are NOT happy with the government, they will revolt and topple the government, just like what they did to KMT in 1940s in China.  You really need to read up about China - there are elections on many level.  Please don't impose your ideas on other and think everyone should be the same.  If you think so, perhaps convince the Arabs who are dictators and many have very awful human rights.  Starting from the Saudis.

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On 2/3/2020 at 2:48 PM, Craig said:

Have you read about IDK, Abu Ghraib and how European countries disagreed with US? Death penalty in the US? To be fair, they also reported on HK protesters setting fire on someone disagreeing with them along with other news (vandalism, throwing things on the rail tracks etc.).

They reported about the new hospital that Wuhan is building to treat 2,000+ patients and made a comment that's a feat that's almost impossible in any western country (getting the Environmental Impact Report will probably take a few months/years). Do you see any media reporting any job well done for other countries? 

I am not familiar with how the Chinese government elect their officials, but how exactly do an ordinary Chinese citizen remove the CCP or at least people in power? 

Should non-citizens not care about Trump, Johnson, Morrison, Duterte, Bolsonaro  etc.? Should BBC not report about US or CNN/Fox not report about Johnson? 

wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==

I am sure Aussies and Western media are praising Morrison for taking a holiday in Hawaii whilst the country is in its worst fire disaster :)

There's freedom of speech but you can't cause mass panic (in the US, the example always given is "shouting fire in a crowded cinema"). MY and SG isn't exactly the beacon for freedom of speech, especially SG. Did the Western media criticize SG/MY for jailing political dissidents? You bet. But do I think MY has better freedom of speech than say 3 years ago? Absolutely.

The problem with many people like yourself is that you are reading of western news and think they knew it all - what they know is one side of story.  Many spend time on the internet and become keyboard warriors.

Sorry I do not really think democracy works - the so called people power.  One vote from everyone, look at the way politicians spread their fake news (Taiwan for example) and making the general public to think they are great, but many are just a bunch of crooks.  I would rather rely on somebody who are politicians for life and just someone in the office for a few years and amass the wealth for themselves and do their friends favours then leaving the problems to the next guy.  I am a fan of meritrocracy. 

For non-citizens, how does Trump, Boris Johnson and etc affect you?  There is no direct relationship.  Sure they can report on whatever they want, but YOU as a reader have the choice to what to read into and not read into.  Most of what Trump does probably have an effect on the policy of your country, particularly if they wish to screw you up.  Otherwise you just get by and nothing to do with you.  Same goes for China, the western news likes reporting one sided story on China and makes you think Chinese want freedom and etc.  How do you know for sure of what they want?  I live in Hong Kong for 7 years and travel regularly to China (even lived in Shenzhen for a year).  I think I know more than most people and I speak Chinese fluently.

So you dont think SG and MY are beacons for freedom of speech but you expect China to be one?  There are freedom of speech in China, it doesn't mean you get arrested for speak out against the government.  There are people with their own agenda and the western media make a huge fuss about it.  The western media do not bother with the political dissidents as much because China is currently their number one enemy or rival.  Singapore and Malaysia is pro-western and they do not make a dent in the world stage.  Just in case if you have forgotten about Edward Snowden, look at what those people the US considered as traitors, you really think the US is really fair and square on "freedom of speech".  I thought only a child would believe such a thing.  i wonder what you should say about the Middle East countries, many are authoritarian and lack of freedom of speech. However, nobody said much about them.

Apologies for such an OT discussion.  I have already made my point.  If you disagreed with it, feel free to do so.  As with anything in the world, there is no black and white.  I hope the voices are multi-dimensional and not just one sided voice from western media (which can be full of sh1t at times).

 

Edited by S V Choong

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22 hours ago, S V Choong said:

The problem with many people like yourself is that you are reading of western news and think they knew it all - what they know is one side of story.  Many spend time on the internet and become keyboard warriors.

Sorry I do not really think democracy works - the so called people power.  One vote from everyone, look at the way politicians spread their fake news (Taiwan for example) and making the general public to think they are great, but many are just a bunch of crooks.  I would rather rely on somebody who are politicians for life and just someone in the office for a few years and amass the wealth for themselves and do their friends favours then leaving the problems to the next guy.  I am a fan of meritrocracy. 

For non-citizens, how does Trump, Boris Johnson and etc affect you?  There is no direct relationship.  Sure they can report on whatever they want, but YOU as a reader have the choice to what to read into and not read into.  Most of what Trump does probably have an effect on the policy of your country, particularly if they wish to screw you up.  Otherwise you just get by and nothing to do with you.  Same goes for China, the western news likes reporting one sided story on China and makes you think Chinese want freedom and etc.  How do you know for sure of what they want?  I live in Hong Kong for 7 years and travel regularly to China (even lived in Shenzhen for a year).  I think I know more than most people and I speak Chinese fluently.

So you dont think SG and MY are beacons for freedom of speech but you expect China to be one?  There are freedom of speech in China, it doesn't mean you get arrested for speak out against the government.  There are people with their own agenda and the western media make a huge fuss about it.  The western media do not bother with the political dissidents as much because China is currently their number one enemy or rival.  Singapore and Malaysia is pro-western and they do not make a dent in the world stage.  Just in case if you have forgotten about Edward Snowden, look at what those people the US considered as traitors, you really think the US is really fair and square on "freedom of speech".  I thought only a child would believe such a thing.  i wonder what you should say about the Middle East countries, many are authoritarian and lack of freedom of speech. However, nobody said much about them.

Apologies for such an OT discussion.  I have already made my point.  If you disagreed with it, feel free to do so.  As with anything in the world, there is no black and white.  I hope the voices are multi-dimensional and not just one sided voice from western media (which can be full of sh1t at times).

 

Incidentally, reported mortality rate of Wuhan virus is consistently 2.1% +/-0.1% in last >10 days as if the virus is statistic savvy.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

 

Edited by KK Lee

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On 2/8/2020 at 11:02 AM, S V Choong said:

Young country - 63 years old a young country?  China is also a young country, it is founded in 1949.  Singapore is also a young country which is founded in 1965.  The politics in Malaysia has not improved to say the least as long as it is of the same guy and with voters having the same mentality.  Keep staying young and innocent and keep fighting for the right government from hopeful to hopeless.  Keep voting the crooks into the government.   The competition amongst the world will not wait for you.

So what makes you think democracy is the best form of govt?  I think you misunderstood what I am saying.  If the people are NOT happy with the government, they will revolt and topple the government, just like what they did to KMT in 1940s in China.  You really need to read up about China - there are elections on many level.  Please don't impose your ideas on other and think everyone should be the same.  If you think so, perhaps convince the Arabs who are dictators and many have very awful human rights.  Starting from the Saudis.

SV Choong.. this is a discussion. Every is allowed to present their facts and talk. But you just told me not to ‘impose’ my ideas on here - sounds like it is you that need to take a deep breath and re read what you have written! 

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