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MAS B772 9M-MRD (Ex Heliconia) Flight MH17 AMS-KUL Shot Down by Russian Missile in Ukraine All 298 POB Killed

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Yeah they flew the same route as MH right? If they are putting people's life at risk, they do not deserve any support either. Doesn't matter if they are SQ or not. One lesson is a complete waste of lives, we don't need another.

 

Oh well looks like a stop at the UAE might be worth it after all.

 

A stop in the UAE is always good fun :)

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People seem to forget, just years ago, many vowed to never fly with QF after a string of unfortunate events. Most of these people blamed dodgy Asian maintenance as the main culprit, although there was no evidence to prove it.

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People seem to forget, just years ago, many vowed to never fly with QF after a string of unfortunate events. Most of these people blamed dodgy Asian maintenance as the main culprit, although there was no evidence to prove it.

 

Yea, apparently they blamed dodgy Malaysia maintenance, which did not have much basis at all..

 

Anyway, on subject of QF and that they had been avoiding the Ukraine airspace for months, this is misleading also, much like our neighbour Singapore Airlines.

 

 

Qantas Airways had not flown over the eastern Ukraine since it shifted its European hub to Dubai last year but it continued to fly over Crimea and the southern Ukraine until April, airline sources said.

 

The Malaysia Airlines operations director, Captain Izham Ismail, on Saturday questioned Qantas’s assertion that it had changed flight paths to avoid the area where MH17 was shot down, because he said the Australian carrier had not been flying in the area.

A Qantas A380 pilot said he had been flying from Dubai to London over Crimea until the trouble started in the area and then had diverted to avoid the airspace altogether on the suggestion of the airline’s security section.

 

“From Turkey, we track over Bulgaria then Romania, thus giving the area a wide berth,” he said.

The pilot said flights from Singapore to London, which were abandoned when the European hub was switched to Dubai last year, had flown over eastern Ukraine.

 

Another source said Qantas had three flight paths from Dubai to London over the Black Sea until April, two of which were over Crimea and one over southern Ukraine. All three were abandoned due to the political turmoil in the region.

 

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-explanation-of-ukraine-flight-paths-questioned-20140720-zuzbe.html#ixzz38BfdQzKe

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RUSSIA has provided an explosive alternative explanation of how Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 went down.

 

Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov said Russian flight records showed a Ukrainian military jet was flying just a few kilometres away from the Malaysia Airlines flight [/url]at the time it went down, The Independent reports.

 

 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/ukrainian-military-jet-was-flying-near-mh17-when-it-was-shot-down-russia/story-fnizu68q-1226997531113

More likely the Russian /rebel SA-11 was aiming for the Ukrainian SU-25 but Mh-17 took the hit instead. Edited by KK Lee

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To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.

 

Flight dispatcher normally run 3 best routings and using fuel analysis they decide which one is the best, then submit the flight plan. If there's any airspace closure the system will reject the routings, and even if the flight plan accepted, ATC will reject and ask them to submit another route. And that, even if there is airspace closure after flight plan accepted and aircraft departed, ATC will detour the aircraft by any mean of communication. It happened to me, and it happened to other pilots as well. We live with it.

 

I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

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To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.

 

Flight dispatcher normally run 3 best routings and using fuel analysis they decide which one is the best, then submit the flight plan. If there's any airspace closure the system will reject the routings, and even if the flight plan accepted, ATC will reject and ask them to submit another route. And that, even if there is airspace closure after flight plan accepted and aircraft departed, ATC will detour the aircraft by any mean of communication. It happened to me, and it happened to other pilots as well. We live with it.

 

I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

It seems flight despatcher relied on airspace closure for avoidance. Wonder how regular and how much threat or risks assessment report was available to them?

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BUK missiles no. SAM yes. During the cold war the US often dispatch their U2 high altitude spy plane to take pictures of missile sites in USSR. Logically technology advancement would mean that today it is possible. What I found amazing is US poses the technology that can almost immediate confirmation an explosion.

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BUK missiles no. SAM yes. During the cold war the US often dispatch their U2 high altitude spy plane to take pictures of missile sites in USSR. Logically technology advancement would mean that today it is possible. What I found amazing is US poses the technology that can almost immediate confirmation an explosion.

Since coldwar, u.s has been deploying early warning satellites to detect missile launch.

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To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.

 

I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

 

Isn't this just too typical in MW?

 

In 2008, we were asked to submit our CV through fax machine to the former Head of MAS Charter because we complained too much about MH's service cut (mostly meals related) at that time [remember Al Hikayat?].

 

During the Immigration Department klia2 move blunder recently, we were asked to replace Mem Aloyah as the Ketua Pengarah of the Jabatan Imigresen by the PTDs in the forum.

 

Now we are being asked to take a flight despatch course, get a pilot license etc.

 

How many DIY do you expect us to do? Kalau semua kena buat sendiri kau kerja buat apa?

 

And this is on top of:

- Kalau tak suka keluar dari negara ni.

- Kalau tak cantik diam.

- Kalau tak sedap jangan makan.

- Kalau tak puasa tak boleh raya.

 

How many restictions do you expect we can make content with? Seriously people.

 

p/s And you do expect us to work with MH if we have a flight despatcher and/or flying license?

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I guess the point is really being missed here. I believe what was meant is that a lot of us love concluding things based on assessments we are not familiar with which normally leads to wrong conclusions. if this is the case, i will have to fully agree. Too many keyboard experts around nowadays.

 

And if anyone asked if i would work for MAS, if i had the expertise, especially in such tough times for them. I actually would

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Conclusion do lies upon the investigation. But believed this incident will twist the whole aviation world a new rule. No aircraft psssing if there's warzone or conflict happening. Perhaps no more departing, arriving, passing through any area which involves conflict.

 

Flight Dispatchers, ATC and pilots are trained to lead passengers with safety, comfort and economical. No way aircraft are flown in a way that due to fuel saving, you have to cut short the route. Most probably, if possible, airways can be removed from the certain country if involving critical issues, and that depends on the local aviation authority.

 

It's astonished that 2 aircraft were shot down and they were not removing the particular route. And since MH17 was downed, everyone is blaming on the airline. There are different issues to be concerned but the most significant issue is the closure of the route. I believe two aircraft involving shot down should reconsider involving the Ukraine aviation authority for not putting this to the issue.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Michael Chai

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Hi guys, hope some light can be shed here. I was puzzled over how a flight route is being planned and determined, by ATC? by pilot? Or just stick to the ICAO approved flight route? Especially now MH 4 is being accused to fly into a war zone again at Syria while enrouting from KUL to LHR.

 

CNN said per flightradar24 screenshot, MH was the only plane flying over Syria but there were others denying it and saying there were other planes also flying over Syria.

 

Totally confused.

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As with most topics, there is a clear divide in viewpoint between those in aviation and those who aren't.

 

Perhaps sometimes we have to remind ourselves to take a step back and try to appreciate the viewpoint from the other side.

 

For those in aviation, It would be good to keep in mind that the layman doesn't possess the unique school of thought and knowledge that can only be attained if one is in aviation.

 

For those who aren't, aviation ingrains one to have zero tolerance for half-baked conclusions without any facts or knowledge. Hence the occasional cold reception when a particular remark sounds "expertly" definitive but riddled with ifs and maybes. Even if it's just for discussion's sake.

 

But this divide is also what keep forums alive. Long shall this continue :-)

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I am not quite sure the repercussion for our PM (Malaysian gov) to talk to the rebel leader. Are we recognizing them? Will this set a precedent with our future dealing with "rebels"?

 

I can still accept if the negotiation is done by our rep but phone call by PM himself? As you pointed out, no other head of governments would want to do that and I suppose that is for a good reason.

 

Usually in "negotiation", something got to give and I wonder what have we agreed.

Believe GoM didn't talk directly with the rebel leader, strong link to their mentor was sufficient.

 

 

Definitely. I dunno how else to support my national airline than buy tickets. After MH370 i channeled a LOT of travel towards MH. That was 1st to 2nd gear. Sekarang masuk gear 3 :)

 

Definitely! After the roller coaster emotional ride the past week, the only tangible way to support is to continue flying MH. Screaming shouting and ranting bl**dy murder could only assuage a little of the anger.

 

Currently booking LHR-KUL-BKK-KUL-BKK for September and again for October. I did the same route post MH370. LHR-KUL-SYD-KUL-LHR in December. My support for MH.

Supporting MH in time of crisis is noble. Believe MH should reward their faithful pax with double or triple enrich miles in the next 6 months.

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CNN said per flightradar24 screenshot, MH was the only plane flying over Syria but there were others denying it and saying there were other planes also flying over Syria.

 

Totally confused.

Flightradar24 had clarified that no other transcontinental flight flew over Syrian airspace other than MH004 on that particular day. MEA is the only foreign airline that is still using Syrian airspace.

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To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.

 

Flight dispatcher normally run 3 best routings and using fuel analysis they decide which one is the best, then submit the flight plan. If there's any airspace closure the system will reject the routings, and even if the flight plan accepted, ATC will reject and ask them to submit another route. And that, even if there is airspace closure after flight plan accepted and aircraft departed, ATC will detour the aircraft by any mean of communication. It happened to me, and it happened to other pilots as well. We live with it.

 

I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

 

I have not done any flight dispatch course or what-so-ever. Were you the decision maker for the MH17 (the doomed flight) too?

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Oh well looks like a stop at the UAE might be worth it after all.

Go have a look at EK's flight paths for their LHR flights. Some overfly both Iraq AND Syria. Edited by Chris Tan

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To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

 

I realise that we malaysians in general takes things personally when some feedback is given and in defence we start saying you havent done this course blah blah and so just shut up.I can understand if such statements were made if MH was one of the best run,most profitable airline but its not. Time and time again wrong decisions have been made.

 

I have realised that when some feed back is given to me,I do not straight away shoot it down because of my pride and take it personally as I used too but actually sit and think where I can improve further.

 

Same goes with MH. we at this forum all want to see this airline to be really sucessful too. To achieve this we need to throw our pride in the bin and start listening,observing what other airlines do/flight paths used and really we have a competent neighbour, all we need to do is follow,even maybe form closer ties between MH GA SQ TG and plan together. But are we willing? Do we know it all?

Edited by jadivindra

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Not all forumers here are related directly or indirectly to the aviation industry. Most if not all are aviation enthusiast, and hence may not know as much as the person in the know and whose job is linked to the subject of talk. Yes, its frustrating to read about people commenting on one's job especially when the person does not fully understand the real works of things. Words can be harsh and sometimes outright insulting to the profession, but it is all done unintentionally (well at least I would like to think so), and I am sure it meant for no degrading of one's job professions.

In this situation, the person whose professions are in questioned, may choose to ignore the articles or he may choose to correct the statements in his best of capability so that the ordinary lay man out there would understand and learnt a new knowledge that day.

 

At the end of the day, what everyone wants is to understand more about the situation and somehow come to a conclusion to satisfy one's own investigative theory.

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To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.

 

Flight dispatcher normally run 3 best routings and using fuel analysis they decide which one is the best, then submit the flight plan. If there's any airspace closure the system will reject the routings, and even if the flight plan accepted, ATC will reject and ask them to submit another route. And that, even if there is airspace closure after flight plan accepted and aircraft departed, ATC will detour the aircraft by any mean of communication. It happened to me, and it happened to other pilots as well. We live with it.

 

I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

Can you please tell us why CX, BA and the likes were able to go around Ukraine in order to avoid their airspace. What, in your professional opinion, have they done to achieve that?

 

I hope we do not need to tell our PMs to do a course in politics before he took the job as a PM.

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Go have a look at EK's flight paths for their LHR flights. Some overfly both Iraq AND Syria.

 

risks are just that....risks....some airlines took it and some does not....MH was just the unlucky one and for me it's wrong to blame them for their route choices only when disaster happened...should MH17 incident never happened I'm sure no one would be talking about flying over conflict zones at all...

 

i mean if airlines should avoid conflict zones by any means necessary then all flights to Israel should have ended much earlier...but only today after a rocket landed near Ben Gurion airport that the FAA prohibits US airlines flying into Israel...if you ask me landing at Ben Gurion is a much bigger risk than flying over conflict area at >30000 ft as aircraft landing at airport can be easily shot down by much simpler rockets...

 

and lastly while i do think that FR24 was correct in their statement that no other transcontinental flight flying over Syria that day but I'm pretty sure there are other non transcontinental flights that overfly that area as well...the confict is mainly ground based conflict and the rebels have limited air defense system....what more if anybody actually own advanced SAM it's the government and not the rebels and i don't think the Syrian government would want to shoot down a commercial airliner and MH was actually flying through government held territory in Syria

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Not all forumers here are related directly or indirectly to the aviation industry. Most if not all are aviation enthusiast, and hence may not know as much as the person in the know and whose job is linked to the subject of talk. Yes, its frustrating to read about people commenting on one's job especially when the person does not fully understand the real works of things. Words can be harsh and sometimes outright insulting to the profession, but it is all done unintentionally (well at least I would like to think so), and I am sure it meant for no degrading of one's job professions.

In this situation, the person whose professions are in questioned, may choose to ignore the articles or he may choose to correct the statements in his best of capability so that the ordinary lay man out there would understand and learnt a new knowledge that day.

 

At the end of the day, what everyone wants is to understand more about the situation and somehow come to a conclusion to satisfy one's own investigative theory.

 

To those who still questioning about alternate routes being taken by MH for European destination, i would advise you guys to go for flight dispatch course, get a license, and apply to work for MH. If you guys are more daring, perhaps spend around RM 300k to get a pilots license, try to get a place in airline flying trans continental route then came back here and convince that it is not a safe route for them to fly around Syria, Afghanistan, for that matter.

 

Flight dispatcher normally run 3 best routings and using fuel analysis they decide which one is the best, then submit the flight plan. If there's any airspace closure the system will reject the routings, and even if the flight plan accepted, ATC will reject and ask them to submit another route. And that, even if there is airspace closure after flight plan accepted and aircraft departed, ATC will detour the aircraft by any mean of communication. It happened to me, and it happened to other pilots as well. We live with it.

 

I am behind MH decision to fly any route they deemed safe. Any detours from safe and normal routes shouldn't be done to appease non-flying public.

 

I guess the point is really being missed here. I believe what was meant is that a lot of us love concluding things based on assessments we are not familiar with which normally leads to wrong conclusions. if this is the case, i will have to fully agree. Too many keyboard experts around nowadays.

 

And if anyone asked if i would work for MAS, if i had the expertise, especially in such tough times for them. I actually would

 

Do we need to be a footballer to comment on football, politician to comment on politic, actor/actress to comment on movie, apps programmer to comment on apps, chef to comment on food, tailor/designer to comment on fashion, racing driver to comment on F1, etc?

 

If we track back comments in this forum, most comments and prediction by regular travelers full time keyboard warriors were unfortunately valid and accurate. If MH is well run and profitable like AK, believe few if any could give alternative comments.

Edited by KK Lee

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No you dont which is why a commentator is just a commentator.Of course it is ok to comment. But i personally feel some comments are too harsh considering that it might be based on assumptions and possibly wrong conclusions. I can understand someone being offended when knowledge, experience and facts are debunked by assumptions but as cire mentioned, it is an open forum and everything is up for discussion and that keeps the forum alive. Just at times maybe it is better if we sat back and gave it a thought or two before delivering harsh criticisms.

 

Either way, i just disagree with the flak that MAS is getting as i do not see them being the guilty party in a case where their plane was shot out of the sky. It would be akin to blaming a womans dressing for rape. We are attacking the wrong party here. And i do believe that their previous performance or profitability (nothing to be proud of) has nothing to do with this tragedy. It would be extremely unfair to put the blame on them because of that.

 

Anyway back to the mh-17 topic, i was wondering if the black box findings would be significant especially if the plane was blown out of the sky in that manner. Will the recording still continue after the blast?

Edited by iwan

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No you dont which is why a commentator is just a commentator.Of course it is ok to comment. But i personally feel some comments are too harsh considering that it might be based on assumptions and possibly wrong conclusions. I can understand someone being offended when knowledge, experience and facts are debunked by assumptions but as cire mentioned, it is an open forum and everything is up for discussion and that keeps the forum alive. Just at times maybe it is better if we sat back and gave it a thought or two before delivering harsh criticisms.

 

Either way, i just disagree with the flak that MAS is getting as i do not see them being the guilty party in a case where their plane was shot out of the sky. It would be akin to blaming a womans dressing for rape. We are attacking the wrong party here. And i do believe that their previous performance or profitability (nothing to be proud of) has nothing to do with this tragedy. It would be extremely unfair to put the blame on them because of that.

 

Anyway back to the mh-17 topic, i was wondering if the black box findings would be significant especially if the plane was blown out of the sky in that manner. Will the recording still continue after the blast?

 

Postmortem is not looking for blame but to find reasons and methodology to prevent re-occurrence of similar tragedy. By sweeping under the carpet, similar tragedy is almost certain will occur again in different form.

 

Unlike BA and AF, believe MH is among other airlines didn't subscribed to risks advisory.

Edited by KK Lee

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