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Mohd Azizul Ramli

MAS New 15 A330-300X + 4 A330-200 Freighter

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I can see that MH will be operating their new A330-300E down to as far reaching as the East Coast of Australia (in fact they have sent the A330-200 down to BNE in the past) and perhaps to Japan too (FUK, KIX were once served by A330-300 and A330-200).

Don't forget the Middle Eastern routes as well (JED, DXB, BEY). MH even operated KUL-JED vv (4,394 miles each way, which is further than KUL-BNE or KUL-SYD) with their existing A333s not too long ago. I had the 'priviledge' of flying it - a gruesome 9.5 hours non stop flight.

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Don't forget the Middle Eastern routes as well (JED, DXB, BEY). MH even operated KUL-JED vv (4,394 miles each way, which is further than KUL-BNE or KUL-SYD) with their existing A333s not too long ago. I had the 'priviledge' of flying it - a gruesome 9.5 hours non stop flight.

Yeah how can I forget the middle east and India!

 

On a slight interesting note, Cathay has been sending their A330-300Es to MEL, which is a 9.5 hours flight from HKG too.

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Cathay Pacific is one of the few operators of both 777-200 and A330-300. I read that Cathay was trying to dispose of the 777-200 as they were more happy with the A330-300 in the A-market segment.

All the 772 have smaller cargo doors which substantially lower down its resale value which is why they are having a hard time selling it.

 

CX indeed is very happy with their 333. It seems to me that they are trying to deploy the 333 to wherever they can. An old technology it may be but if it works for them and SQ, it will work for MAS too, provided they iron out all the internal issues (the management, cost, inflight product offerings etc.).

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Except there is a saying Too little too late.

 

All the 772 have smaller cargo doors which substantially lower down its resale value which is why they are having a hard time selling it.

 

CX indeed is very happy with their 333. It seems to me that they are trying to deploy the 333 to wherever they can. An old technology it may be but if it works for them and SQ, it will work for MAS too, provided they iron out all the internal issues (the management, cost, inflight product offerings etc.).

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There is also a saying better late than never. Besides, it's not that there is zero chance of them ordering the 787 or 350 in the future. Should they make the 333E a firm order soon, the first aircraft will arrive in 2011 and this is simply impossible with the 787 or 350.

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With the new A330E, MAS will phase out their old leased planes, and also the smarties seats!

 

isnt that a good reason to celebrate the big order?

 

Also, i think MAS is also being very concious, not wanting to be a pioneer in having a product. I mean, the A380 is still having teething problems, even after how many frames delivered?

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Yes, MH has always been "conservative" - it is seldom a pioneer and on leading edge technologies. This is probably because they are not very good at problem solving and they have always had the government to bail them out if they get into trouble. However, the A333 order is exactly what the airline needs under the current circumstances. As the CEO has said in the New Year interview, they are also looking at the B787/A350 for the future. So lets wait and see...

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Yes, MH has always been "conservative" - it is seldom a pioneer and on leading edge technologies. This is probably because they are not very good at problem solving and they have always had the government to bail them out if they get into trouble. However, the A333 order is exactly what the airline needs under the current circumstances. As the CEO has said in the New Year interview, they are also looking at the B787/A350 for the future. So lets wait and see...

 

 

totally agree.. i don't know why some people are blaming them for not ordering 787/350 now..

 

yes it was their mistake for not placing the order earlier for 787/350.. otherwise they would have earlier delivery slots and need not order these A330s then but it is too late to point the fingers now. perhaps they were too eager to turnaround the organisation and forgotten the prospect of future fleet planning but Dato IJ did say, he would concentrate on making the airline profitable and only this is achieved, he will start ordering planes..

 

now with the B738s and A333s coming on the way, i am sure MH will be able to offer a better product and on par with other regional products by other airlines i.e. CX/SQ... having PTV on their future B738s is a step forward..

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A33E is similar capacity to A350, assume MH to replace A33E after 10 years in operation, we can only expect MH to order A350/787 in 2020.

 

As MH is not the launch customer for 787 and the earliest available slot for 787 is in 2014, don’t find the risk is excessive. If MH is risk aversive, MH shouldn’t have lost billions in oil trading.

 

:drinks:

Edited by KK Lee

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A33E is similar capacity to A350, assume MH to replace A33E after 10 years in operation, we can only expect MH to order A350/787 in 2020.

The future of the 350 is still very uncertain. Assume if Airbus manage to role out the first example in 2012, there is still no guarantee that the first one will enter commercial service the following year. Even 2014 is very generous already but then i might be just too pessimistic.

 

So, if MAS were to order the 350 in 2020 and assume they will take delivery of the first one in 2022, it will still be a relatively new aircraft then.

 

 

As MH is not the launch customer for 787 and the earliest available slot for 787 is in 2014, don’t find the risk is excessive.

The risk is great due to the fact that the 787 is a complete different animal. Its body is made of composite and since it's a new plane, we can all expect many technical issues with it and MAS would not want to dwell into that.

 

Besides, MAS was one of the first to operate the 333 and 772 in the 90s. Did the plane help them financially ? Not really ...

 

 

If MH is risk aversive, MH shouldn’t have lost billions in oil trading.

And an expensive lesson is learnt.

Edited by Isaac

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If MH is risk aversive, MH shouldn’t have lost billions in oil trading.

I think it is fuel hedging - however, if MH did not hedge its fuel, professional financial analysts and people like us will criticise them for exposing MH to risks of high oil prices! A case of damned if you do, damned if you don't!

 

The future of the 350 is still very uncertain. Assume if Airbus manage to role out the first example in 2012, there is still no guarantee that the first one will enter commercial service the following year. Even 2014 is very generous already but then i might be just too pessimistic.

MH learnt its lesson with the A380 - it is now 3-4 years late! And if it had ordered the B787 earlier, this is also late. The early planes that launch airline ANA will receive are also overweight - so these will cost more to fly.

 

That is why it is ordering aircraft with a definite and confirmed delivery date!

Edited by flee

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I think it is fuel hedging - however, if MH did not hedge its fuel, professional financial analysts and people like us will criticise them for exposing MH to risks of high oil prices! A case of damned if you do, damned if you don't!

Ideally, prudent hedging is limited to 50% of one year usage. Anything more is purely speculation or betting.

 

MH learnt its lesson with the A380 - it is now 3-4 years late! And if it had ordered the B787 earlier, this is also late. The early planes that launch airline ANA will receive are also overweight - so these will cost more to fly.

MH A380 production slots were MSN018, MSN024 and MSN032. Qantas to receive MSN029 A380 this month. MH A380 should be more appropriately termed as deferred delivery by MH rather than delay in delivery by Airbus.

 

Heavier than design weight is unlikely to disappear with late production number, the advantages of late production number is likely up rated engine power.

 

 

 

 

That is why it is ordering aircraft with a definite and confirmed delivery date!

There is always uncertainty in business, airline even ground existing fleet. Hence, coping with delay in delivery is not a big issue as they can delay retiring existing fleet or lease aircraft for increased capacity.

 

New aircraft e.g. A33E, 787, A350, etc expect to operate for 10+ years. 787/A350 operation cost is 15% to 20% cheaper than A33E. Early delivery of A33E offered advantages over competitors operate older aircraft like A333 for 3 to 4 years but thereafter no longer competitive. Unless MH is planning to order 787/A350 in 2 to 3 years time which is highly unlikely, MH won’t be competitive in the longer term.

 

:drinks:

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Let's look at it from a neutral perspective. Not every single person is an aviation enthusiast. To the "not-so-keen on airplanes" community, it doesn't really matter what plane they're flying on as long as it's nicely looked after, and the in-flight entertainment, service and food is good.

Unless the plane's wings are gonna fall off midway through a flight, I don't see why it's such a big fuss. The A33E isn't such a bad aircraft after all. It served as the workhorse for big players such as CX, yet we don't see their customers complaining. It all comes down to what's inside the aircraft, not what it looks like.

If MAS feels it's good enough for them, so be it. Otherwise, we'd be running the airline, not them. But I don't think that's ever gonna happen, cuz they obviously know better than us, and that's why they're hired to work for MAS. There are other things to look at, not just which plane has the "awesome" factor. Of course, B787/A350 is the aviation enthusiast's favourite, but there's more to what meets the eye!

 

:drinks:

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There is always uncertainty in business, airline even ground existing fleet. Hence, coping with delay in delivery is not a big issue as they can delay retiring existing fleet or lease aircraft for increased capacity.

Well that's true. If the ordering slot for the B787 is available for delivery of aircraft from 2014 onwards, I think the existing A330 are happy to fly until then. IIRC, the oldest A330 in MAS fleet was delivered between 1994 - 1995, it will last until her twenty years of age or longer.

 

MAS is probably more keen on the A350, rather than the B787s?

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MH A380 production slots were MSN018, MSN024 and MSN032. Qantas to receive MSN029 A380 this month. MH A380 should be more appropriately termed as deferred delivery by MH rather than delay in delivery by Airbus.

Production slots and MSNs are not necessarily in sequence. Some MSNs are never built too. MH has already mentioned that so far they have not requested any deferrals in delivery.

 

New aircraft e.g. A33E, 787, A350, etc expect to operate for 10+ years. 787/A350 operation cost is 15% to 20% cheaper than A33E.

So far, B787/A350 fuel burn numbers are theoretical whereas A333 numbers are actual. So the B787/A350's advantage cannot be confirmed until we see some actual statistics. Furthermore the fuel burn is dependant on the length of the sectors flown. Those percentages mentioned are usually fuel burn over the maximum range of the aircraft. MH may be deploying the A333s over the KUL-KCH sector, which is considerable shorter than the max range of the aircraft. So fuel burn may not be such a big issue.

 

To the "not-so-keen on airplanes" community, it doesn't really matter what plane they're flying on as long as it's nicely looked after, and the in-flight entertainment, service and food is good.

Yes, MH's current "smarties" product is not all that appealing - so they need to upgrade the product soon to be competitive.

 

There are other things to look at, not just which plane has the "awesome" factor. Of course, B787/A350 is the aviation enthusiast's favourite, but there's more to what meets the eye!

Yes, some people must have the latest this and that, and the wow factor is driving those pax into the A380s of Emirates, SQ and QF. But by the time MH gets its A380s the wow factor would more or less have disappeared. And even if MH ordered B787/A350's now, their delivery slots will mean that they are some 4 or 5 years behind the early adopters. So I think MH prefers to take a wait and see attitude before coming to some conclusion about those "plastic planes"... ;)

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Yes, MH's current "smarties" product is not all that appealing - so they need to upgrade the product soon to be competitive.

 

 

That's my point. We're talking about the seats. If they get rid of the "smarties" and replace it with a 5-star seat, we're still looking at the interior. Whether or not it's an A333, or B787, in the end, we're all looking at what's inside the aircraft and the service we're given :)

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But MH can place an order lock in the 787 at a cheap price then wait 2020(Year of the Rat) :rolleyes: whenever and take delivery late if wished. Boeing executives will be more than happy to obliged.

 

totally agree.. i don't know why some people are blaming them for not ordering 787/350 now..

 

yes it was their mistake for not placing the order earlier for 787/350.. otherwise they would have earlier delivery slots and need not order these A330s then but it is too late to point the fingers now. perhaps they were too eager to turnaround the organisation and forgotten the prospect of future fleet planning but Dato IJ did say, he would concentrate on making the airline profitable and only this is achieved, he will start ordering planes..

 

now with the B738s and A333s coming on the way, i am sure MH will be able to offer a better product and on par with other regional products by other airlines i.e. CX/SQ... having PTV on their future B738s is a step forward..

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But MH can place an order lock in the 787 at a cheap price then wait 2020(Year of the Rat) :rolleyes: whenever and take delivery late if wished. Boeing executives will be more than happy to obliged.

Well, the incumbent MH management may not be around in 2020. They are looking for immediate results and 2011 is more appealing! Once the new aircraft is in the fleet, they get go and tell their paymasters that the airline now has the best 5 star product available...

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MAS is probably more keen on the A350, rather than the B787s?

Now that is a seriously disturbed thought :lol:

 

I like the 330 very much but not so much on the soon to be born cousin, 350. I have always been a 787 guy B)

 

When MAS place another order next time replacing the 333, i hope it's going to be the 789. I feel that the 333 is a bit too big for certain MAS routes. 332 will definitely suit MAS better in terms of capacity but i believe many complained it is too heavy for short/medium-haul flights hence the bigger sibling is the more appropriate type. This is where 789 comes into play. It has almost the same seating capacity as the 332 and it can haul more freights. If the 789 do meet its designed operating targets, it will be the perfect bird for MAS.

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That's my point. We're talking about the seats. If they get rid of the "smarties" and replace it with a 5-star seat, we're still looking at the interior. Whether or not it's an A333, or B787, in the end, we're all looking at what's inside the aircraft and the service we're given :)

 

i like ur statement! but someone say MAS personel said it's too heavy when i ask the same question as like urs! and my last question still no one willing to answer beside of kena "sut" only. :good:

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Now that is a seriously disturbed thought :lol:

 

I like the 330 very much but not so much on the soon to be born cousin, 350. I have always been a 787 guy B)

 

When MAS place another order next time replacing the 333, i hope it's going to be the 789. I feel that the 333 is a bit too big for certain MAS routes. 332 will definitely suit MAS better in terms of capacity but i believe many complained it is too heavy for short/medium-haul flights hence the bigger sibling is the more appropriate type. This is where 789 comes into play. It has almost the same seating capacity as the 332 and it can haul more freights. If the 789 do meet its designed operating targets, it will be the perfect bird for MAS.

 

Exactly....in terms of less fuel cost and etc. I don't think the A333 can do better than this.

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By the time MH gets the 330's they will be considered inefficent and usless

 

Exactly....in terms of less fuel cost and etc. I don't think the A333 can do better than this.

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By the time MH gets the 330's they will be considered inefficent and usless

 

I agreed...in the past, management will always blame previous management for not making wise decision and i foresee that will continue....a silly excuse always

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