Jump to content
MalaysianWings - Malaysia's Premier Aviation Portal
Mohd Azizul Ramli

MAS New 15 A330-300X + 4 A330-200 Freighter

Recommended Posts

Do bear in mind that this decision is made mainly because their current A330s are in urgent need of replacement. A further decision will be needed to replace the B747/B777s soon, perhaps an order for the B787/A350 will be made once MH sees some operational statistics of these aircraft. That means it may be another 1 or 2 years before MH makes its next order.

 

The first 787 will most likely to enter service in 2011 or 2012 while 350 in what ? 2016 or 2017 ? Ordering the enhanced 333 now makes perfect sense. This is at least a promised technology and we do not know much about the 787 and 350 yet.

The A350 is scheduled to enter commercial service in 2013, if everything goes well.

 

Yes, MH needs to buy proven aircraft with short delivery lead times. It cannot risk any delivery delays (like those seen on the A380) as their current A330s are rather old and tired.

Edited by flee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do bear in mind that this decision is made mainly because their current A330s are in urgent need of replacement. A further decision will be needed to replace the B747/B777s soon, perhaps an order for the B787/A350 will be made once MH sees some operational statistics of these aircraft. That means it may be another 1 or 2 years before MH makes its next order.

 

 

The A350 is scheduled to enter commercial service in 2013, if everything goes well.

 

Yes, MH needs to buy proven aircraft with short delivery lead times. It cannot risk any delivery delays (like those seen on the A380) as their current A330s are rather old and tired.

 

Agree.

 

When the required delivery time frame is 'urgent' and yet decision making is slow, there is price that need to pay. In this instance, MAS has itself very limited option.

 

Nevertheless, congratulations to MAS for placing new order !

Edited by Kee Hooi Yen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MAS has always been a late bloomer. CX is not ordering any 787 or 350 just yet while SIA will continue to take delivery of more 333 in the next few years. So MAS is not exactly alone in this case. Mind you all that all the examples mentioned are reputable carriers.

 

By the way, EK too has ordered 30x 333 right ? And delivery will only start in 2011 or 2012 if my memory serves me correctly. If EK thinks the 333 are going to work fine for them then why wouldn't it be for MH ?

 

The first 787 will most likely to enter service in 2011 or 2012 while 350 in what ? 2016 or 2017 ? Ordering the enhanced 333 now makes perfect sense. This is at least a promised technology and we do not know much about the 787 and 350 yet.

 

EK and SQ ordered A333 to meet increased capacity or replacement as interim solution before 787/A350 is available. If MH is in need to replace A333 urgently, MH could always lease until 787/A350 delivery.

 

EADS develops A350 to replace A330, A340. Ordering A33E to replace A333 is a kin to replace DC-10-30 with MD-11 when 772 is on the pipe line.

 

Ever wonder who made the decision to buy A33E instead of 787/A350?

 

:drinks:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

EADS develops A350 to replace A330, A340. Ordering A33E to replace A333 is a kin to replace DC-10-30 with MD-11 when 772 is on the pipe line.

 

Ever wonder who made the decision to buy A33E instead of 787/A350?

 

 

You're always right in hindsight.

 

This is not the last order EVER to be placed by MAS.

 

Who made the decision? obviously not you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EK and SQ ordered A333 to meet increased capacity or replacement as interim solution before 787/A350 is available. If MH is in need to replace A333 urgently, MH could always lease until 787/A350 delivery.

 

EADS develops A350 to replace A330, A340. Ordering A33E to replace A333 is a kin to replace DC-10-30 with MD-11 when 772 is on the pipe line.

 

Ever wonder who made the decision to buy A33E instead of 787/A350?

 

:drinks:

 

Precisely, i dont think the A333 's technology will last for another 15 years or so.....MH is already in a urgent need to replace the A330s few years back....well, there's are many talks without actions.....now the management are claiming that the delivery slots of the B787 and A350s will not be available for the next few years.....that's the most silly excuse. Placing an order on the A333s will not benefits MH in long term unless MH is aggressive on fleet renewal like SQ.

 

Well well, we had seen increasing European manufactured aircraft in Malaysia, starting with the ATR 72 and now A333.....perhaps anyone here can clarify....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not the last order EVER to be placed by MAS.

 

Who made the decision? obviously not you.

 

Correct, correct, correct :good: :clapping:

 

Expecting more big ticket purchase from MH next year B)

 

:drinks:

Edited by KK Lee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If MH is in need to replace A333 urgently, MH could always lease until 787/A350 delivery.

Two problems with this idea:

 

1 The A333 is in great demand all over the world. Where are you going to find 15 planes available for lease? AirAsia X delayed their launch due to difficulty in finding aircraft for lease. The one A333 that they are currently leasing (9M-XAA) is the same age as MH's old planes.

 

2 The B787/A350's delivery dates are uncertain. They could suffer from multiple delays too, just like the A380. If you have leased aircraft you don't have enough flexibility to lengthen or terminate leases as you wish. So how is MH going to manage its fleet properly, if there are so many uncertainties.

 

MH has stated that it expects to gain annual savings of RM300 million. I think that is a number that is too big to ignore. How much will waiting for the B787/A350 cost MH?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two problems with this idea:

 

1 The A333 is in great demand all over the world. Where are you going to find 15 planes available for lease? AirAsia X delayed their launch due to difficulty in finding aircraft for lease. The one A333 that they are currently leasing (9M-XAA) is the same age as MH's old planes.

MH is not replacing all A333 in one go but over a 5 years period from 2011. After some airlines receive 787, there will be some retired A333 available in the lease market may be from 2012/13.

 

 

Two problems with this idea:

2 The B787/A350's delivery dates are uncertain. They could suffer from multiple delays too, just like the A380. If you have leased aircraft you don't have enough flexibility to lengthen or terminate leases as you wish. So how is MH going to manage its fleet properly, if there are so many uncertainties.

MH is not the launch customer of 787/A350. The risk of delay in delivery or technical issue is low. If these A33E is critical to MH, MH should have place the order years ago.

 

 

MH has stated that it expects to gain annual savings of RM300 million. I think that is a number that is too big to ignore. How much will waiting for the B787/A350 cost MH?

Annual saving of RM300 million will only realized when all 15 A33E are in operation in 2016. By that time, 787 and A350 would have been in service for 4+ and 2+ years respectively. How will MH A33E operation cost compare with 787/A350 from 2014?

 

If MH replaced DC-10 with MD-11 for 10% fuel saving, etc. Could MH MD-11 compete with 772 equipped SQ, CX, TG, EK, EY?

 

:drinks:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MH is not replacing all A333 in one go but over a 5 years period from 2011. After some airlines receive 787, there will be some retired A333 available in the lease market may be from 2012/13.

 

 

 

MH is not the launch customer of 787/A350. The risk of delay in delivery or technical issue is low. If these A33E is critical to MH, MH should have place the order years ago.

 

 

 

Annual saving of RM300 million will only realized when all 15 A33E are in operation in 2016. By that time, 787 and A350 would have been in service for 4+ and 2+ years respectively. How will MH A33E operation cost compare with 787/A350 from 2014?

 

If MH replaced DC-10 with MD-11 for 10% fuel saving, etc. Could MH MD-11 compete with 772 equipped SQ, CX, TG, EK, EY?

 

:drinks:

 

Exactly, MH management is very short sighted, they fail to consider the long term benefits of placing the order on the B787s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Quote didn't Qantas cancel there 787-8 order that is a good oppotunity for MH to jump in, this means MH gets there planes before 2016. And Mh will not have to deal with ICAO sound controls, maintence and value of the plane will be bad.

2. No not BNE, PER, MEL we don't need another 330 operator we need more 747's and 777's

3. Except the reason SQ have ordered the 330 is a sweetner deal from Airbus and Singaporian deappreciaiton laws they can take advantage of say that's why you see SQ always has very good fleet age. :rolleyes:

 

I think that MH has already stated why it is not considering the B787 for this order - it needs the planes to be delivered very soon due to their tardy decision making process. Their old A332/A333 are in urgent need of replacement. The other reason is that MH has MRO expertise in handling this plane - so maintenance will not be a big issue as they will be familiar with this aircraft type. If they choose the RR Trent 700EP engine (SQ is using this engine), MTOW will be higher than their old planes too.

 

This is, at best, a stop gap decision. I am sure more orders will be dished out soon and don't discount orders for the B747-8I!

 

 

Maximum Range of the 772ER's is 7,700NM (14,260KM)

Maximum Range of the A333X is 5,669NM (10,500KM)

 

So the A333 will not be replacing the 772ER's on the long haul routes to Europe, more likely that it will replace the current Flights to Australia (BNE/PER/MEL) along with flights to Regional flights, South Asia, China..

 

So it is looking like a good purchase for MH, since they need the new aircraft as soon as possible, especially when you compare the current offerings on the A330 on medium haul flights such as Perth with that of its counterparts in SQ and CX..

 

The B772's are still going strong, so they can go on for a couple years more, until the delivery slots for the A350 etc start to open up. No real point ordering an airplane who's precise specifications are as yet unknown right now when it will only be delivered 2013 (A350)

 

hope their IFE and cabin is updated with these new birds!

 

 

MAS has always been a late bloomer. CX is not ordering any 787 or 350 just yet while SIA will continue to take delivery of more 333 in the next few years. So MAS is not exactly alone in this case. Mind you all that all the examples mentioned are reputable carriers.

 

By the way, EK too has ordered 30x 333 right ? And delivery will only start in 2011 or 2012 if my memory serves me correctly. If EK thinks the 333 are going to work fine for them then why wouldn't it be for MH ?

 

The first 787 will most likely to enter service in 2011 or 2012 while 350 in what ? 2016 or 2017 ? Ordering the enhanced 333 now makes perfect sense. This is at least a promised technology and we do not know much about the 787 and 350 yet.

 

 

 

77L is so out of the picture. MAS won't be able to make this plane type work for them.

 

 

 

Not really. They do have a huge backlog order for Boeing 737-800.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Quote didn't Qantas cancel there 787-8 order that is a good oppotunity for MH to jump in, this means MH gets there planes before 2016. And Mh will not have to deal with ICAO sound controls, maintence and value of the plane will be bad.

2. No not BNE, PER, MEL we don't need another 330 operator we need more 747's and 777's

3. Except the reason SQ have ordered the 330 is a sweetner deal from Airbus and Singaporian deappreciaiton laws they can take advantage of say that's why you see SQ always has very good fleet age. :rolleyes:

 

MH can take advantage of the cancellation order from other airlines..it again reveals the poor MH management. So, don't be surprise that MH is unlikely to be as profitable as SQ and CX in the next 20-15 years. What can I say?? This is Malaysia..the boleh land.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever the decision MH made, how many variety of new fleet MH wants, just have that ancient livery changed. Long overdue.

 

You may get more than what you wish for B)

 

:drinks:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may get more than what you wish for B)

 

:drinks:

Huh? seriously?... care to spill the beans?... :help:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since MH decided to have A33E on medium haul, what about the gap between 738 and A333? Understand there are a number of routes that are too small for A333 and too big for 738. Why MH is not considering 332? :sorry:

 

:drinks:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since MH decided to have A33E on medium haul, what about the gap between 738 and A333? Understand there are a number of routes that are too small for A333 and too big for 738. Why MH is not considering 332?  :sorry:

 

:drinks:

 

IMHO MH should convert some 738 orders to 739ER to narrow the gap. Not that it'll narrow by much though...

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By past convention, MH will likely to deploy A33E on Australian and Japanese routes before the rest of (less prestige) Asia. Unless MH planned to increase frequency to Europe, MH should have surplus 772 from 2013. MH to retire 772 from 2014?

 

:drinks:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it be easier for Malaysia Help to lease 777's from SQ until 2016 so they can get there 787 or 350, I personally like to see 350 as MH will cut costs and Airbus owes a debt to Malaysia needs Help :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I read somewhere that this deal is still in a form of a Letter of Intent. No MoU signed yet between MH and Airbus. Only until then, maybe the details whether the purchase and the option can be converted into A350 or not will be ironed out. I think this is how it should be.

 

Even in the past, I think MH should operate more A332s. It has the capacity and range that suits MH's loads in most destinations. And I thought MH delayed their wide body order because they want the Dreamliner to fill in this category of aircraft in their fleet. But it proves otherwise, for the time being at least.

 

I am waiting anticipatedly on which type of aircraft that MH will order to replace the existing B772s. It's the only type left without any fleet renewal plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since MH decided to have A33E on medium haul, what about the gap between 738 and A333? Understand there are a number of routes that are too small for A333 and too big for 738. Why MH is not considering 332? :sorry:

This is where 788 comes into play :p That is however, something to be decided in the future. They did say 787 and 350 are out of the picture now but they did not say they will never ever order the 787 or 350 after all.

 

 

Wouldn't it be easier for Malaysia Help to lease 777's from SQ until 2016 so they can get there 787 or 350, I personally like to see 350 as MH will cut costs and Airbus owes a debt to Malaysia needs Help :rolleyes:

The newly ordered 333 are meant to replace all of their current 330 and all these new planes will be deployed on short to medium-haul routes. The SIA 772 might not be very suitable as it is too heavy. This is also one of the reasons why SIA is replacing theirs and they did admit that going all 772 in 2000s was a mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I strongly suspect that MAS' exclusive A333 order is also used as some negotiating ploy with Boeing. I am sure that the TOTAL COST (not just running costs) of the A333 is superior to anything Boeing can offer right now, in view of the A380 compensation that MH will be seeking for the further delay in deliveries. If Boeing does not want to be shut out of future wide body orders, then it had better come to MH with a better deal plus delivery slots that are earlier than 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I strongly suspect that MAS' exclusive A333 order is also used as some negotiating ploy with Boeing. I am sure that the TOTAL COST (not just running costs) of the A333 is superior to anything Boeing can offer right now, in view of the A380 compensation that MH will be seeking for the further delay in deliveries. If Boeing does not want to be shut out of future wide body orders, then it had better come to MH with a better deal plus delivery slots that are earlier than 2020.

Finally someone that see's the bigger picture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having placing the order or A333 is quite similar of having A300B4 (an improved version of the A300s) in the 90s when A330s is obviously a more superior aircraft at that time. Well, MH should evaluate the long term benefits of the A350s and the B787s and not just giving a silly excuse. The management can take advantage of the cancellation orders by some airlines to get an early delivery of such aircraft.

Edited by Kenneth T

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except if MH gets its Boeing deal would MH lose there deposits with Airbus or would they go and buy more 380's or 350's or 320NG with GTF :rolleyes:

 

I strongly suspect that MAS' exclusive A333 order is also used as some negotiating ploy with Boeing. I am sure that the TOTAL COST (not just running costs) of the A333 is superior to anything Boeing can offer right now, in view of the A380 compensation that MH will be seeking for the further delay in deliveries. If Boeing does not want to be shut out of future wide body orders, then it had better come to MH with a better deal plus delivery slots that are earlier than 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I strongly suspect that MAS' exclusive A333 order is also used as some negotiating ploy with Boeing. I am sure that the TOTAL COST (not just running costs) of the A333 is superior to anything Boeing can offer right now, in view of the A380 compensation that MH will be seeking for the further delay in deliveries. If Boeing does not want to be shut out of future wide body orders, then it had better come to MH with a better deal plus delivery slots that are earlier than 2020.

 

...spot on assessment ,final part of orders to come..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...