Air France A330 F-GZCP Flight AF447 GIG-CDG Crashed Into the Atlantic Ocean All 228 POB Killed

[LeeCH 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong. While technology has gone leaps and bounds it seems like the technology on the black box itself is still the same for so many year. Still the same orange box with recording tapes inside. Still only 30-days battery life. Why can't they make the device "float"?

 

Perhaps some LAE or expert in this area may shed some light on this. Try to look at things beyond improvement of the physical box itself. I am sure FDR and CVR have been improved tremendously but superficial to the layman outside. Better casing, materials, water/flame and high temperature protection, fire and impact protection, larger recording capacity and so much more. I am sure what is available now is the best there is when a/c type is launched and spec against airline operator requirements ($$ talks). Furthermore, planes do not drop out of the sky on everyday basis and it will be hard to justify all the money spent on R&D and airlines will not pay for it. Already total airlines in the world will set to lose USD$9 billion this year itself. And ICAO will have a tough time to ponder how to force airline to accept the latest and most high tech CVR/FDR. Just my SGD$0.02 thought.

 

[Yusoff 1]

they probably will from this point onwards...

Another example of 'Tomb-stone Technology'

[S V Choong 4]

17 bodies found from lost Air France plane

 

ECIFE, Brazil (CNN) -- Seventeen bodies have been recovered from last week's crash of an Air France jetliner off the South American coast, Brazil's military said Sunday.

 

A boat from the Brazilian navy picks up debris in the Atlantic on Sunday.

1 of 3

 

The Brazilian navy and air force said they found nine bodies in the Atlantic Ocean, where the Airbus A330-200 went down. The crew of a French vessel taking part in the search has found eight, military officials told reporters Sunday evening.

 

Air France 447 disappeared over the Atlantic early Monday. The jet was en route to Paris, France, from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, with 228 passengers and crew aboard.

 

The bodies were found floating about 700 miles (1,100 kilometers) from the Brazilian coast. Items found in the same area Saturday were confirmed to have come from the jet, including pieces of the aircraft's wing section, luggage and a leather briefcase containing an airplane ticket with a reservation code for the doomed flight, Brazilian air force spokesman Jorge Amaral told CNN.

 

The exact location of the crash has not been determined, since ocean currents likely caused the bodies and debris to drift in the six days since the crash. And two key pieces of evidence -- the flight data and cockpit voice recorders -- remain missing, and could lay on the ocean floor.

 

The part of the ocean where the debris and bodies have been found ranges between 19,685 and 26,247 feet (6,000 and 8,000 meters) deep. The search area covers 77,220 square miles (200,000 square km), an area nearly as big as the country of Romania.

 

Fourteen aircraft -- 12 Brazilian and two French -- were participating in the recovery efforts, along with five Brazilian ships and one French frigate. In Washington, a U.S. defense official told CNN the U.S. Navy will contribute two high-tech acoustic devices to listen for emergency beacons still operating in deep water.

 

The "towed pinger locators" help search for emergency beacons on downed aircraft to a maximum depth of 20,000 feet, and will be placed aboard two French tugs that are part of the search efforts, the official said.

 

Recovery of bodies and debris is significant not only for families, but for crash investigators, said Mary Schiavo, a former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

"Even if they don't find anything else they can get some very important clues from the pieces that they do find and from the human remains," Schiavo told CNN Saturday.

 

She said investigators would be able to discern if there was an explosion from possible residue on the bodies or other items. Or, if water is found in the lungs of victims, investigators would know the plane went down intact, she said.

 

Investigators in Paris said Saturday that the Air France flight sent out 24 automated error messages lasting about four minutes before it crashed. The error messages suggest the plane may have been flying too fast or too slow through severe thunderstorms it encountered before the crash, officials said.

 

Schiavo said the four minutes of automated signals sent from the plane "was a very long time."

 

Investigators also reported the airline failed to replace a part on the aircraft, as recommended by the manufacturer, Airbus.

 

Airbus had advised airlines to update equipment that monitors speed, known as Pitot tubes. The recommendation was a result of technological developments and improvements, an Airbus spokesman told CNN. The change was not mandatory, and the spokesman would not comment on Air France's failure to follow the advice.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas...rash/index.html

Edited June 8, 2009 by S V Choong

[kaybin 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong. While technology has gone leaps and bounds it seems like the technology on the black box itself is still the same for so many year. Still the same orange box with recording tapes inside. Still only 30-days battery life. Why can't they make the device "float"?

 

It believe there is certain challenge to overcome the 30 days battery life. Li-ion is common but not cheap and not that stable to heat or impact. May be there isn't much of a R&D progress for such application.

 

Another reason is the 'ping' transmission sucks power. Not many of our cellphone can standby for 30 days across thick ocean or walls.

 

For the "Float" issue, I think it posses bigger challenge. The case is heavy, it requires lot of lift, floating it takes up space.

Floating is also a bad idea during water impact because as it hits the water at high speed, it immediately react in opposite direction, increasing the impact force, and fracture the device.

 

I'm not an expert, that is just what I think lar.

Edited June 8, 2009 by kaybin

[Sri Ramani K. 0]

Iggy, all a/c that are ACARS capable will have this automatic feature. Including my triple. It sends out maintenance messages on a/c health systems so that stations receiving the a/c can know the extent of the fault and prepare for rectification work should spares and expertise is available on landing. Airbus and Boeing all have them. I saw such system on one of my visit to SQ offices as part of crew visit. EICAS/ECAM and Status messages are for crew to take appropriate action in flight and sort out using checklist and MEL where applicable. Same thing will be sent to the maintenance office too. As for CVR and FDR, it is a continuos monitoring and recording of flight data and a/c system parameters. Too much data to downlink continuously.

 

ACARS equipped a/c's have these functions. but again, it's down to the operator to exercise these functions or not. again $$$ is the factor. ACARS is just a transmitter and for them to be able to receive the messages and send text msgs, again $$! :sorry:

Edited June 8, 2009 by Sri Ramani K.

[Ignatius 4]

ACARS equipped a/c's have these functions. but again, it's down to the operator to exercise these functions or not. again $$$ is the factor. ACARS is just a transmitter and for them to be able to receive the messages and send text msgs, again $$! :sorry:

 

So.. since its all $$ related, are Airasia's leased and brand new A330/340 ACARS equiped? And do they exercise the functiions?

[Waiping 12]

I think in due time all these will be addressed, just like CVR and FDR becoming compulsory despite cost. Also pretty much the same as seat belts and air bags for cars or something closer to aviation, the explosive proof luggage container. Just that while everything else seems advice on the plane itself i.e. analog to digital display, the ones that may be able to help you happens to be of primitive make.

[Sri Ramani K. 0]

So.. since its all $$ related, are Airasia's leased and brand new A330/340 ACARS equiped? And do they exercise the functiions?

 

ada la iggy. most if not all manufactured airbuses & boeings have them fitted. and yes, they can transmit and receive i know of one other carrier in m'sia who didn't want to track what's going on in the cockpit

[Alif A. F. 0]

So.. since its all $$ related, are Airasia's leased and brand new A330/340 ACARS equiped? And do they exercise the functiions?

 

According to Bloomberg, MAS already finished upgrading the sensors on all its A332s last september...

Edited June 8, 2009 by Alif A. F.

[Ignatius 4]

ada la iggy. most if not all manufactured airbuses & boeings have them fitted. and yes, they can transmit and receive i know of one other carrier in m'sia who didn't want to track what's going on in the cockpit

 

Nasib. Nasib ada hehehe.. But then it comes to my senses again.. about the Pitot thingy.. if one pitot sensor iced over.. shudn't there be a secondary one to make sure the readings are useable?? Just my Ringgit Malaysia 0.02 cents thoughts wakkaka

[Tamizi Hj Tamby 1]

The Brazilian Air Force team had recovered the AF A332 tail.

 

Air France tail found; US helps hunt black boxes

[Tony 1]

I think in due time all these will be addressed, just like CVR and FDR becoming compulsory despite cost. Also pretty much the same as seat belts and air bags for cars or something closer to aviation, the explosive proof luggage container. Just that while everything else seems advice on the plane itself i.e. analog to digital display, the ones that may be able to help you happens to be of primitive make.

True to a certain extent. But take glass cockpit for example. It does improve situational awareness so much more for regular flying, but of course if you have electrical failure onboard, you'll have to revert to the analog dials. So, do you want to improve something for sake of regular flying or remain primitive just in case there is a fault or accident? I think the choice is pretty clear, no?

[Denny Yen 0]

AF447's tail fin

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yusoff 1]

Pertaining to the vertical stabilizer recovered:

 

Excerpt:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane;_y...wss.z.ZR5blWMcF

...

 

Waldock — who examined the photos and video of the stabilizer and rudder — said the damage he saw looks like a lateral fracture.

 

"That would reinforce the idea that the plane broke up in flight," he said. "If it hits intact, everything shatters in tiny pieces."

 

No signs of burn marks on the stabilizer offered scant clues: Any explosion or fire in the fuselage would likely not make its way back to the tail section, according to Waldock. Examining the fracture surfaces will also be key, Waldock said, since it will indicate from what direction the force came that snapped the piece.

 

Investigators are also looking at the possibility that external speed monitors — called Pitot tubes — iced over and gave dangerously false readings to cockpit computers in a thunderstorm.

 

Peter Goelz, a former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board, said the faulty airspeed readings and the fact the vertical stabilizer was sheared from the jet could be related.

The Airbus A330-200 has a "rudder limiter" which constricts how much the rudder — which is attached to the vertical stabilizer — can move at high speeds. If it were to move too far while traveling fast, it could shear off and take the vertical stabilizer with it.

 

"If you had a wrong speed being fed to the computer by the Pitot tube, it might allow the rudder to over travel," Goelz said. "The limiter limits the travel of the rudder at high speeds and prevents it from being torn off."

Asked if the rudder or stabilizer being sheared off could have brought the jet down, Goelz said: "Absolutely. You need a rudder. And you need the (rudder) limiter on there to make sure the rudder doesn't get torn off or cause havoc with the plane's aerodynamics."

...

[Waiping 12]

It's feels a bit weird that when the plane went missing I all knew about it almost instantaneously. But we just could find it until after a couple of days. It's like looking someone getting killed but there is absolutely nothing you can do to save them.

[Naim 6]

It's feels a bit weird that when the plane went missing I all knew about it almost instantaneously. But we just could find it until after a couple of days. It's like looking someone getting killed but there is absolutely nothing you can do to save them.

 

No need to feel down, bro. By the time we heard of the crash, they were already dead for hours. For the Air France ppl receiving the 'SOS' messages live from the plane, they could understandably be depressed now.

[C.Foo 3]

Airbus has now issued a warning to replace speed measurements .

[Tony 1]

No need to feel down, bro. By the time we heard of the crash, they were already dead for hours. For the Air France ppl receiving the 'SOS' messages live from the plane, they could understandably be depressed now.

Exactly. Especially those who have been monitoring the string of downlinks. Failure 1...Failure 2...Failure 3...etc etc. Basically "watching it happen".

[C.Foo 3]

Af pilos soon could refuse the 330/340 until sensors are fixed

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=a8dY0m8FTZkI

[Denny Yen 0]

AF447 ACARS message decoded by engineer familiar with ACARS datastream:

Multiple computer failures happened simultaneously, starting at 02:10 GMT, when a series of 14 warnings and failures emerged at once.

 

First, the auto pilot system disengaged. Then came a basic auto flight message warning. Next, something within the flight control computer failed. Then, warning flags appeared on the personal flight displays of the captain and co-pilot. Then the rudder exceeds the limits of normal flight. And on it goes.

 

"With all of these failures, they don't have the information that they need to fly the aircraft in a safe environment," Darryl says. "If the pilot or first officer don't have any display functioning, then they're flying blind in the night. ... You're trying to fly the aircraft with no technology."

 

The last message received is a cryptic "213100206ADVISORY" warning at 02:14 GMT. It indicates loss of cabin pressure.

 

There's so much going on, the pilots don't know what to do other than take a hold of the stick and fly the aircraft, because the airplane is not flying itself. If this was happening in a clear day in the middle of the day, you'd still be in serious trouble, but at least you'd know if you were climbing or descending.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/library/ACARS_AF447.pdf

 

http://www.iag-inc.com/premium/acars.m3u

 

 

Daily map updates from Brazilian AF

https://www.defesa.gov.br/imprensa/mostra_m...D_MATERIA=33110

 

 

 

 

 

[Pall 0]

one silly question...

 

Don't tell me that the manufacturer for so kind of product needs to wait for an accident to occur in order to release such kind of warning to operators operating the same machines to have their speed measurements devices to be up to date with situations which can be faced to some circumstances of weather...

 

can this be a business game???

 

My pasar malam thoughts

 

 

[Mohd Suhaimi Fariz 2]

one silly question...

 

Don't tell me that the manufacturer for so kind of product needs to wait for an accident to occur in order to release such kind of warning to operators operating the same machines to have their speed measurements devices to be up to date with situations which can be faced to some circumstances of weather...

 

can this be a business game???

 

My pasar malam thoughts

 

Tombstone mentality...you have to wait for people to die for change to come about

[Tony 1]

Let's not blame it all on tombstone mentality. We don't live in a perfect world afterall.

[Ignatius 4]

Let's not blame it all on tombstone mentality. We don't live in a perfect world afterall.

 

Then later they found out that it wasnt the sensors after all!!! Ooopppsss..

[Waiping 12]

A bit like MS Windows also lah. Error? Illegal operation? Time for an update.