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Pieter C.

Turkish Airlines Boeing 737-800 crashed @ AMS

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I guess Phil is wondering if a microburst could be the cause of this latest crash. It was certainly the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this incident. I see a few Australian newspapers say it could have been an engine-related accident.

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According one passenger interviewed today, both engines worked normally and even the crew increased thrust just before 'falling from the air'...


Looks like a stall, but why was it too low while on approach ?


BBC World News, just reported it could be wake-turbulence, as 2 mins. before a 757 landed :blink:


Amazing, only 9 people died of the 135 on board, when you think of it !


Of the 6 seriously injured, only 2 are still in life-threatening condition...


Of the 9 dead people, 5 were Turkish nationals (ofwhich 3 cockpit-crew), and 4 were US citizens (ofwhich 2 were Boeing employees, according Dutch news)...

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How they compare this accidents?




AirFrance A340 has been landed but slipped from runway due heavy landing, did not hit the ground or made emergency landing




that T7 has at least engine power as report even be iddle or close to iddle.they were too lucky, becouse they lost the power from very close the runway.If they crashed before 1nm, yes, we should get the same category.




the same as AirFrance. but if you talk about Littlerock accident with American MD80, that was a fatal accident compare with Continental. Result; not suitable example!




just only this accident acceptable in the same case with a little exceptions, ditching is much more better to try to land. But they were really lucky and pilots were amazing for success landing perform without engines.


so A.P reporters makes nonsense!


Maybe can make comparison.... but not that exact with this incident...


MH A300 in former KUL (now SZB)


I guessed MH was luckier... she managed to slide longer, thus minimised the sudden stop.

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New twist in AMS crash, TALPA says "...F/O was screaming for 40mins..." "...first aid delayed..."


Schiphol crash pilot's death draws cockpit door scrutiny

By David Learmount



The Turkish Airlines Boeing 737-800 crash on approach to Amsterdam Schiphol airport is the first survivable incident in which the anti-hijacking cockpit security door was shown to be a hazard for pilots.


Turkey's main English language newspaper Hurriyet has reported an on-scene witness statement that one of the pilots survived the crash even if badly injured, but he was not rescued in time to save his life.


Rescue teams eventually had to recover the bodies of the three pilots - one was traveling in the jump-seat - by cutting through the cockpit roof.


"According to the eye-witnesses and passengers, first aid came 40 minutes after landing," said Ziya Yilmaz, Turkish Air Line Pilots Associaton (TALPA) president tells ATI. "The first officer was screaming and waiting 40 minutes for rescue. We will inform IFALPA and ask why?"


The Dutch Safety Board says it cannot comment on the allegations in the Hurriyet report, adding that it is investigating all scenarios, including the Turkish Airline Pilots Association allegation that wake vortex from a previous aircraft may have contributed to the accident. The Board added that more information may be available "after the weekend".


The Hurriyet report, quoting Turkey's Dogan news agency, says that Ismail Akyuz, a Turkish man living in Amsterdam, and his wife were travelling along the main road near the airport when the aircraft came down in fields close to them.


Akyuz told Hurriyet: "We took notice of the plane after we realised it was Turkish." The two crossed the field in which the aircraft had come to a halt, says the report. Akyuz described to Dogan what they found: "I saw the hand of the pilot in the front part of the plane. He was in the throes of death.


When I arrived he was still alive but couldn't move. I heard him noisily breathing.


Akyuz continued: "When we first arrived at the scene we saw people lying on the ground injured. Some of them had broken legs... I entered the fuselage from one of the open doors and walked to the back part of the plane. There were couple of people there and we helped them to get out."


He also commented: "It took around 20 minutes before the rescue teams got to the scene as a secondary road leads there." The Safety Board said it is unable, at present, to provide the time it took for the crash rescue team to arrive at the accident scene. Runway 18R is the furthest of the runways from the main part of Schiphol airport, and the wrecked hull was about 1km short of the runway threshold outside the airport boundary.


Dutch authorities have also been unable to confirm whether the rescue teams were able to determine whether the cockpit crew were dead when they reached the accident scene. But they concentrated first on evacuating badly injured survivors because they could not penetrate the cockpit door.


"The cockpit doors changed after 9/11," says TALPA's Yilmaz. "But in the crashes, how will the pilots be rescued from the cockpit?"


The seven-year-old 737 (TC-JGE) crashed while inbound from Istanbul, Turkey on 25 February. It came down in open fields on short final approach slightly to the left of the extended centreline. Accident investigators say that initial download from the flight data recorder shows it had "very low" forward speed. This fact is borne out by the extremely short skid marks on the ground before the hull came to rest.


The aircraft hit the surface in landing configuration, and witnesses say the nose was very high. The investigators confirm the tail hit the ground first, partly severing it, and the aircraft had a high vertical speed, which accounts for the nine fatalities and a large number of serious injuries among the seven crew and 127 passengers.




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Effective today (28feb) only 46 people remain hospitalized, with only 1 in critical condition...


Another press-conference on 04mar09 (probably about initial results of 'black boxes' ?)

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Effective today (28feb) only 46 people remain hospitalized, with only 1 in critical condition...


Another press-conference on 04mar09 (probably about initial results of 'black boxes' ?)


Feel sorry for the victims of the crash.

Looking forward to hear from the press conference;Please,do keep us updated Uncle Pieter.

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An excerpt from avherald:


...They added, that the cockpit voice and flight data recorders have been read out. First evidence suggests, that both engines have failed before impact with the ground.


I also read this in Saturday's The Star.




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Investigators Study Turkish Air Crash Black Boxes


February 26, 2009

Investigators on Thursday were examining the flight data recorders of a Turkish Airlines plane that crashed in a field as it came in to land at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport.


Nine people, including three crew members, were killed when the Boeing 737-800 from Istanbul crashed on Wednesday morning.


Dutch officials have taken the flight recorders to Paris where French authorities are providing technical assistance.


A reconstruction of the accident will be made in combination with data from the recorders and information gathered at the scene, Dutch Safety Board spokeswoman Sandra Groenendal said.


"We will know more after the weekend and probably have clues to determine the direction of the investigation and how to proceed," she said.


Dutch officials said three of the nine people killed in the crash were Turkish crew but could not confirm the identity of the other victims.


Haarlemmermeer mayor Theo Weterings said in total 121 people were treated in hospitals around Amsterdam and 63 of them were still in care, six in critical condition.


"Four of them are in such a severe condition that we have not been able to communicate with them," Weterings told a news conference.


The priority is to identity the victims and inform relatives, he said. The plane was carrying mainly Dutch and Turkish nationals.


Victims' names will not be released until all were confirmed and relatives notified. A plane carrying 67 relatives from Turkey landed at Schiphol Airport on Wednesday.


Flight TK 1951 crashed in light fog while trying to land at Schiphol and passengers described the plane as suddenly dropping to the ground during landing.


Safety Board chairman Pieter van Vollenhoven told Dutch media the plane left a short trail in the field where it crashed, indicating the engines might have stopped providing forward thrust.


"If you then lose speed, you then literally fall out of the sky," he was quoted saying.


The investigation is being led by the Dutch Safety Board, which will determine the cause of the crash, and the public prosecution office, which is investigating questions of guilt.


Three staff from Boeing, the plane's manufacturer, and two investigators from the manufacturer of the engines, CFM International, are also assisting Dutch authorities. Turkish Airlines will provide maintenance records of the plane.




Black boxes are examined at the BEA office - Le Bourget/Paris/France.




Pilots Say Turbulence Likely Reason For Schiphol Crash


February 28, 2009

Turbulence created by a large plane landing at Amsterdam just ahead of a Turkish Airlines Boeing 737-800 may be the most likely reason it crashed, a Turkish pilots' association said.


Five Turks and four Americans were killed when the 737 crashed into a field short of the runway at Schiphol Airport on Wednesday. Among the dead were three pilots and a flight attendant.


A Boeing 757 appeared to have landed on the same runway just two minutes before the Turkish Airlines (THY) plane, the Turkish pilots' association (TALPA) told a news conference.


"Wake turbulence", an air turbulence created by a pair of vortices trailing in the wake of an aircraft's wing tips, could have hit the descending Turkish plane, preventing it from continuing to fly, the group said.


TALPA Vice Chairman Mete Dane demonstrated flight TK 1951's approach to Schiphol and said the reason why it had suddenly lost altitude pointed to wake turbulence.


The Schiphol control tower should issue full information about planes landing on the runway, the landing intervals, and what communication took place, he said.


A Dutch Safety Board spokesman said wake turbulence was one of the options its investigators were looking at.


"We look at all options and we certainly are not excluding this one," spokesman Fred Sanders said.


It was not clear if a Boeing 757 had actually landed just before the Turkish Airlines plane, he said.


A Schiphol spokeswoman declined to comment on any speculation while the cause of the crash was being examined.




TALPAS's Dane said: "We do not have exact information about the distance between the planes and we do not know if our plane has been warned about the situation. But according to the records we have seen, no mention of it is made."


"We want Dutch Aviation Authorities to be neutral and release all information, including any which might relate to them."


Experts are examining the flight recorders from the plane, which are now in Paris, where French authorities are providing technical assistance. The Dutch Safety Board expects to present a preliminary conclusion of the investigation next week.


A THY plane carrying some of those injured in the crash arrived in Istanbul on Friday.


The company said the pilots who died were Captain Hasan Tahsin Arisan, Murat Sezer, Olgay Ozgur and flight attendant Ulvi Murat Eskin.




The plane we're talking about was N546US (NW 757)...

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i never never NEVER LIKE to be in a wake turbulence. inflight or even finals....



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Phil, at the accident, aircraft has 4615kg fuel on board for diverting and holding. According reports there weren't any much delay such as include holdings or etc. There were very big chance about did not flame of fuels becouse, the most probably, (thanks God) wings and main center tank did not get damage so there is no serious fuel leak(due soft soil where hitted to ground) . After broke up the engines connection points, the most probably, leaked fuel absorbed by soil.





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i never never NEVER LIKE to be in a wake turbulence. inflight or even finals....


Hit a wake turbulence on finals at BKK in '07. AK A320 suddenly dipped right 45deg very fast, before I could shriek, then slowly leveled off. So close to the ground, can see cars and bikes, if the plane had flipped over, ..., dunno lah!

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Thanks so much for that info hakan .All i can think of is microburst is the cause of the crash! Off course i can be so wrong!!

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Thanks so much for that info hakan .All i can think of is microburst is the cause of the crash! Off course i can be so wrong!!


Microburst could not be the case: as said in the 1st or 2nd post: very calm weather with hardly any wind ...

Could be, indeed, wake-turbulence: a press-conference has been scheduled for tomorrow for the initial findings.

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Click the link below for a simulation of 'what happened based on eye-witness accounts' :




Again, this afternoon, a press-conference will be given, so hope to give more 'details' later...

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Press conference is still going on, but here are a few points from the prelimanery findings, as told be NTSB's chairman Pieter Van Vollenhove:


- Most likely pilot error. Pilots did not action certain corrections quickly enough, especially when the airspeed dropped considerably.

- Co-pilot, who was receiving line-training was "pilot-flying".

- Captain took over control in the last few seconds only.

- Thrust was idle at a critical moment for more than 100 seconds, and crew only reacted to that 6 seconds later, unable to get full control of plane again.

- Landing phase started too high -2000 feet- with speed too high (socalled 'rushed approach').

- Left (radio)altimeter indicated from 1950 to -7 instantly (autopilot was 'thinking' plane was too high and, therefore, put thrust to idle.

- No evidence was found regarding fuel-shortage, bird-strike, icing, turbulence or engine- and/or control deficiencies.

- Warned Boeing to disconnect autopilot when there are problems with the altimeters.


Hopefully, more to come later...

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Page last updated at 14:03 GMT, Wednesday, 4 March 2009


Altimeter 'had role' in air crash


Investigators have said a faulty altimeter played a role in the plane crash near Amsterdam's Schiphol airport last week that killed nine people.


Dutch Safety Board chairman Pieter van Vollenhoven said the plane was landing on automatic pilot and the problem with the altimeter led to a loss of speed.


He said the airplane had twice before reported problems with its altimeter.


The Turkish Airlines plane crashed just short of the runway. It hit the ground tail-first and broke into three pieces.


The Boeing 737-800 had been carrying 127 passengers and seven crew. Four Americans and five Turks died, including the captain and two other members of the crew. Dozens were injured, many critically.


At a news conference in The Hague, Mr Van Vollenhoven said the plane had been at an altitude of 595m (1950ft) when making its landing approach to Schiphol airport, although the altimeter recorded an altitude of around ground level.


The plane was on autopilot and its systems believed the plane was already touching down, he said.


The automatic throttle controlling the two engines was closed and they powered down. This led to the plane losing speed, and stalling.


Mr Van Vollenhoven said Boeing had been instructed to warn its clients about possible problems with altimeters on similar aircraft.




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This is what was just published:


No evidence of fuel shortage, birdstrike, icing, windshear, wake turbulence, or engine, system or control malfunction.


The first officer was initially flying the aircraft and was inexperienced in airline operations.


Autopilot and autothrottle were in use.


The aircraft was initially high and fast on the approach and at about 2,000ft above ground the throttles were pulled to idle.


The authrottle went to "retard" mode and the throttles then stayed at idle for about 100 seconds during which time the speed fell to 40kt below reference speed.


The aircraft descended through the glideslope with the captain talking the first officer through the before landing checklist.


The stick shaker activated at about 400ft above ground and the first officer increased power.


The captain took control and as the first officer released the throttles they moved to idle due to being in "retard" mode.


After six seconds the throttles were advanced but as the engines responded the aircraft hit the ground in a slightly nose-high attitude.


Throughout the episode the left-hand radio altimeter read negative seven feet altitude, but the right-hand radalt worked correctly.


Boeing will warn crews about fundamentals like flying the aircraft, monitoring airspeed, monitoring altitude, and will give advice about radalt issues


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I never believe this report until see FDR and CVR discrypt second by second!

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I never believe this report until see FDR and CVR discrypt second by second!


You still need to interpret them.





Faulty altimeter a factor in plane crash


By Toby Sterling in Amsterdam

Thursday, 5 March 2009


A faulty altimeter played a role in the crash at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport last week that killed nine people, say investigators.


The Turkish Airlines jet was landing on automatic pilot when a problem caused it to slow abruptly far short of the runway, sending it plunging into a muddy field, less than a mile short of the runway at the Amsterdam airport, chief investigator Pieter van Vollenhoven said yesterday.


At 1,950 ft the airplane's left altimeter suddenly and mistakenly registered an altitude of 8 ft below sea level and passed the reading on to the automatic control system, Mr van Vollenhoven said. According to conversation recorded between the plane's captain, first officer and an extra first officer on the flight, the pilots noticed the faulty altimeter but didn't consider it a problem and didn't react, Mr van Vollenhoven said. But the autopilot reduced gas to the engines and the plane lost speed, decelerating until, at a height of 450 ft, it was about to stall. Warning systems alerted the pilots, who responded, but too late to recover.


The Boeing 737-800's flight recorders also showed false readings from the altimeter on two flights before the 25 February crash. Mr van Vollenhoven did not say if pilots had noticed the previous incorrect readings.


The Dutch Safety Authority said it had issued a warning to Boeing during its investigation, asking the company to alert customers that when altimeters did not function properly "the automatic pilot and the gas system coupled to them may not be used for approach and landing," said Mr van Vollenhoven.


Boeing said it was reminding all operators of its 737s to carefully monitor primary flight instruments during critical phases, adding that it was carefully monitoring the fleet.


Ahmet Izgi, of Turkey's Pilot's Association, told Turkey's NTV news channel that the preliminary Dutch findings were "not satisfactory" and said it would be odd for the pilots not to react to a false altimeter reading in time to save the plane.


Mr van Vollenhoven said the plane carrying 135 passengers was being landed on autopilot, a situation he called not unusual. He said that the pilots had been unable to see the runway at the time the plane began its descent due to the cloudy conditions and light rain. The investigation continues.




Edited by Naim

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Dutch Safety Board: Malfunctioning altimeter caused THY 737 autopilot to decelerate


Thursday March 5, 2009

A malfunctioning altimeter caused the autopilot system on the Turkish Airlines 737-800 that crashed last week on approach to Amsterdam to reduce power prematurely, and by the time the pilots reacted it was "too late to recover the flight," Dutch Safety Board Chairman Pieter van Vollenhoven said yesterday.


DSB's "initial findings" provided a strikingly clear explanation of the crash's likely cause less than a week after the Feb. 25 accident that killed nine and led Boeing to issue a statement warning 737NG pilots to "carefully monitor primary flight instruments during critical phases of flight."


Vollenhoven explained that the aircraft's "automatic throttle system. . . received incorrect information because of a malfunction in the left radio altimeter." The cockpit voice and flight data recorders show that at 1,950 ft. the "left radio altimeter suddenly indicated a change in altitude, from 1,950 ft. to -8 ft., and passed this on to the automatic pilot. . .It seems that the automatic system, with its engines at reduced power, assumed it was in the final stages of the flight. As a result, the aircraft lost speed. Initially, the crew did not react to the issues at hand."


The crew, which included a captain, a first officer on a training flight and a third pilot in the cockpit, "were notified that the left radio altimeter was not working correctly" by a "landing gear must go down" warning signal, Vollenhoven said, adding that "provisional data indicates that this signal was not regarded [by the crew] to be a problem."


But the autopilot's deceleration "reduced [the 737-800] to minimum flying speed," setting off an alarm. The crew "immediately" attempted to apply full power, he said. "However, this was too late to recover the flight, the aircraft was too low and, consequently, the [aircraft] crashed 1 km. short of the runway."


DSB issued a warning to Boeing regarding 737-800 altimeters, advising the manufacturer to amend its manual to say that autopilot should be switched off if an altimeter malfunctions during flight. Boeing, which confirmed that three passengers who died in the accident were company employees, said it would "look closely" at the recommendation.


Vollenhoven noted that the aircraft's tail hit the ground first, followed by the undercarriage, and its forward speed "was about 175 km. per hr. upon impact. . .An aircraft of this weight should normally have a speed of 260 km. per hr. for landing." The three pilots died in the crash and 28 surviving passengers remain hospitalized.


"The board's investigation will now focus fully on the workings of the radio altimeters and the connection to the automatic throttle," Vollenhoven said. He conceded in a press conference that DSB was issuing highly detailed findings at an early stage in the investigation. "The reason to go public now. . .is to warn Boeing and all users of this plane type that vigilance is required with regards to the altimeter," he said.


Weather conditions at the time of the accident included a "low cloud base and. . .mist [that] probably meant that the [AMS runway] was not yet visible at the height at which the descent was commenced," which may have been a contributing factor, he said. Regarding the aircraft, there have been no "irregularities" found except for the altimeter malfunction, he said.



Faulty Altimeter Played Part In Turkish Air Crash


March 4, 2009


A faulty altimeter shut down the engine of the Turkish Airlines flight before it crashed last week near Amsterdam airport killing nine people, Dutch authorities said.


They said similar shutdowns had occurred twice before on the same plane and were overruled by the pilots, and warned its maker Boeing and any airlines using 737 models to be vigilant.


When flying at about 1,950 feet (594 metres) the plane's left radio altimeter indicated the Boeing 737-800 was flying at minus 8 feet, prompting the automatic pilot to shut down the engines, the Dutch Safety Board said on Wednesday.


"The crew initially did not react to these events," Dutch Safety Board head Pieter van Vollenhoven told reporters.


When an alarm went off that the plane's speed would drop below the minimum, the pilots reacted and reignited the engines.


"But the plane was too low at 150 metres. As a consequence the plane crashed one kilometre before the runway," said Van Vollenhoven.


"The reason to go public now already is to warn Boeing and all users of this plane type that vigilance is required with regards to the altimeter," he said.


Boeing said in an statement it was "issuing a reminder to all 737 operators to carefully monitor primary flight instruments during critical phases of flight".


The plane's black box -- which can register 25 hours of flying time and in this case had covered 8 flights-- showed the problem had occurred twice previously during landings.


In the first instances the pilot had overruled the automatic pilot and restarted the engines, a spokesman for the Safety Board said. Investigations were underway as to why more action had not been taken after the problem was detected.




Five Turks and four Americans were killed when the plane plunged into a boggy field while trying to land last week at Amsterdam's Schiphol, Europe's fifth-largest airport by passenger numbers and third largest by freight volume.


Passengers said the plane suddenly dropped to the ground during landing.


Braking caused when the plane hit the ground meant that the aircraft broke into two pieces and the tail broke off.


Most of the fatally wounded were near the rupture, in business class, and the three crew members in the cockpit died as a result of the enormous braking forces.


The section that remained most intact was situated around the plane's wings.


Among the dead were three pilots and a flight attendant. The plane carried 127 passengers and 7 crew, of whom 28 are still in hospital.


"We are focussing the investigation on the malfunctioning radio altimeter and its consequences. Whether there could have been a different reaction will take more time to find out," Van Vollenhoven said.


A trainee pilot was flying the plane before the crash took place, Van Vollenhoven said, and he declined to say whether this had any impact on the events.


Misty weather and low clouds meant the runway was not yet visible at the height at which the descent started.


"The plane was in heavy fog. I think the pilots did not see that a problem was occurring," Van Vollenhoven said.


The Safety Board had not detected any other malfunctions of the plane, and did not have indications that the airport's instructions or air turbulence played a role in the crash, Van Vollenhoven said.


The aircraft initially hit the ground in a field with its tail followed by its undercarriage, with a forward speed of 175 km per hour on impact. An aircraft should normally have a speed of 260 km per hour for landing, the safety board said.







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